2008 美国总统竞选第一场辩论中英文对照

punkxxx

作者是猫眼上的一个ID，收集帖子的时候把他ID给忘了，汗！把全文扒到自己论坛上，方便转载。另外作者是看着辩论录象编译的，翻译不一定精确，各位不要期望过高，全部内容大约近50个回复帖，现在开始帖！

LEHRER: Good evening from the Ford Center for the Performing Arts at the University of Mississippi in Oxford. I'm Jim Lehrer of the NewsHour on PBS, and I welcome you to the first of the 2008 presidential debates between the Republican nominee, Senator John McCain of Arizona, and the Democratic nominee, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois.

主持人：晚上好，这里是牛津密西西比大学的表演艺术中心。我是来自公共广播公司《新闻时间》的吉姆.拉勒尔。我欢迎你们来到2008年首场总统竞选辩论。两位总统候选人是来自亚利桑那州的共和党提名人——议员约翰.麦凯恩，和来自伊利诺斯州的民主党提名人——议员贝拉克.奥巴马。

(注：牛津，密西西比南部一城市，位于田纳西州孟斐斯东南偏南。是密西西比大学的所在地（老密西），建于1844年，它是威廉姆·福克纳的家乡。人口9,882)

The Commission on Presidential Debates is the sponsor of this event and the three other presidential and vice presidential debates coming in October.

总统竞选辩论委员会是这次辩论以及即将在10月份的另外三次总统竞选辩论和副总统竞选辩论的主办者。

Tonight's will primarily be about foreign policy and national security, which, by definition, includes the global financial crisis. It will be divided roughly into nine-minute segments.

今晚的话题将主要围绕外交政策和国家安全。其中，国家安全包括了这次全球金融危机。我们将大概以9分钟为一段（辩论）。

Direct exchanges between the candidates and moderator follow-ups are permitted after each candidate has two minutes to answer the lead question in an order determined by a coin toss.

我们将用掷硬币的办法来决定谁先回答引导问题。在两位候选人分别回答完后，可以进行直接交流。主持人也可以进一步追问。

The specific subjects and questions were chosen by me. They have not been shared or cleared with anyone.

具体的主题和问题都由我决定。它们从未被（我）向任何人披露或解释。

The audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent, no cheers, no applause, no noise of any kind, except right now, as we welcome Senators Obama and McCain.

大厅中的观众都已经承诺保持沉默，即不欢呼，不鼓掌，不发出任何形式的噪音。除了现在——让我们欢迎议员奥巴马和麦凯恩。

(APPLAUSE)
（鼓掌）

Let me begin with something General Eisenhower said in his 1952 presidential campaign. Quote, "We must achieve both security and solvency. In fact, the foundation of military strength is economic strength," end quote.

让我以艾森豪威尔将军在1952年总统竞选时说过的一句话开始：“我们必须获得安全和财务偿还能力。事实上，军事实力的基础就是经济实力。”

With that in mind, the first lead question.

在脑中记住这个，让我们开始第一个引导问题。

Gentlemen, at this very moment tonight, where do you stand on the financial recovery plan?

先生们，在今晚这个特别的时刻，你们在金融拯救计划中站在哪里？

First response to you, Senator Obama. You have two minutes.

第一个回答问题的是你，议员奥巴马。你有两分钟时间。

OBAMA: Well, thank you very much, Jim, and thanks to the commission and the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss, for hosting us tonight. I can't think of a more important time for us to talk about the future of the country.

奥巴马：好的，非常感谢你，吉姆，也感谢（总统竞选辩论）委员会，感谢密西西比大学今晚容纳我们。我无法想象我们还有比今晚讨论这个国家的未来的更重要的时刻了。

You know, we are at a defining moment in our history. Our nation is involved in two wars, and we are going through the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

你们知道，我们现在正处于我们历史上的一个决定性时刻。我们的民族被涉入两场战争（注：伊拉克战争和阿富汗战争），而我们正在经历自经济大萧条（注：1929年）以来最糟糕的金融危机。

And although we've heard a lot about Wall Street, those of you on Main Street I think have been struggling for a while, and you recognize that this could have an impact on all sectors of the economy.

尽管我们听说了相当多关于华尔街的事情，但你们那些在城镇主街上的人们（注：这里指美国城镇和乡村的典型居民）已经在（艰难地）努力了一段时间。你们都知道这（金融危机）也许会影响到经济的方方面面。

And you're wondering, how's it going to affect me? How's it going to affect my job? How's it going to affect my house? How's it going to affect my retirement savings or my ability to send my children to college?

你们想要知道，它（金融危机）如何影响到我？如何影响到我的工作？如何影响到我的住宅？如何影响到我的退休金储蓄或者是送我孩子上大学的能力？

So we have to move swiftly, and we have to move wisely. And I've put forward a series of proposals that make sure that we protect taxpayers as we engage in this important rescue effort.

所以我们必须得即刻就行动了，而且我们得要明智地行动。我已经提出一系列的建议，以确保当我们从事这项重要的（金融）拯救行动时，纳税人（的权益）得到保护。

Number one, we've got to make sure that we've got oversight over this whole process; $700 billion, potentially, is a lot of money.

首先，我们必须确保整个过程有仔细的监督。可能（被国会通过）的7000亿美元是一笔相当大的数额。

Number two, we've got to make sure that taxpayers, when they are putting their money at risk, have the possibility of getting that money back and gains, if the market -- and when the market returns.

第二，我们必须确保纳税人现在冒着风险投入的钱有可能拿回来并增加，只要市场——且当市场回复（正常）时。

Number three, we've got to make sure that none of that money is going to pad CEO bank accounts or to promote golden parachutes.

第三，我们必须确保（这些钱）一分钱也不能变成CEO的银行账户或者成为黄金保护伞（注：企业的高级管理层或离任的政府官员在失去他们原来的工作后，在经济上给予其丰厚保障的安排）。

And, number four, we've got to make sure that we're helping homeowners, because the root problem here has to do with the foreclosures that are taking place all across the country.

第四，我们必须确保我们正在帮助住宅所有者，因为问题的根源与在这个国家到处都在发生的无力偿付房贷有关。

Now, we also have to recognize that this is a final verdict on eight years of failed economic policies promoted by George Bush, supported by Senator McCain, a theory that basically says that we can shred regulations and consumer protections and give more and more to the most, and somehow prosperity will trickle down.

现在，我们也必须承认这（金融危机）就是对议员麦凯恩所支持的乔治.布什这八年来失败的经济政策的最终裁决。（他们的）一个理论主要宣称的是我们可以撕碎（市场）管理和消费者保护，只要给予越来越多的（自由）直到极致，然后繁荣昌盛就会从天上掉下来。

It hasn't worked. And I think that the fundamentals of the economy have to be measured by whether or not the middle class is getting a fair shake. That's why I'm running for president, and that's what I hope we're going to be talking about tonight.

（他们的）理论根本没有起过作用。而我认为经济的基础应该以中产阶级是否能进行公平交易作为衡量标准。这就是为什么我在竞选总统，这也是我所希望今晚我们将所讨论的。

[ Last edited by punkxxx on 2008-10-23 21:21 ]

punkxxx

LEHRER: Senator McCain, two minutes.

主持人：麦凯恩议员，两分钟。

MCCAIN: Well, thank you, Jim. And thanks to everybody.

麦凯恩：好的，谢谢你，吉姆。谢谢所有人。

And I do have a sad note tonight. Senator Kennedy is in the hospital. He's a dear and beloved friend to all of us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the lion of the Senate.

今晚我还有一个令人遗憾的消息：肯尼迪议员住院了。他是我们最亲爱的一个朋友。让我们向议会的雄狮表达挂念和祈祷。

I also want to thank the University of Mississippi for hosting us tonight.

我也要感谢今晚容纳我们的密西西比大学。

And, Jim, I -- I've been not feeling too great about a lot of things lately. So have a lot of Americans who are facing challenges. But I'm feeling a little better tonight, and I'll tell you why.

而吉姆，我——我近来一直对很多事情感到不满。许多面临困难的美国人们也和我一样。然而今晚我感觉稍微好些了，我会告诉你为什么。

Because as we're here tonight in this debate, we are seeing, for the first time in a long time, Republicans and Democrats together, sitting down, trying to work out a solution to this fiscal crisis that we're in.

这是因为我们在今晚这场辩论上，我们看到，这是相当长一段时间以来第一次共和党人和民主党人坐下来，尝试作出一个我们所面临的金融危机的解决方案。

（注：我认为麦凯恩此言，意在抨击民主党人的“不合作”。当然，这个“不合作”是由他所定义的。）

And have no doubt about the magnitude of this crisis. And we're not talking about failure of institutions on Wall Street. We're talking about failures on Main Street, and people who will lose their jobs, and their credits, and their homes, if we don't fix the greatest fiscal crisis, probably in -- certainly in our time, and I've been around a little while.

我们毫不怀疑这次危机的危害性。我们现在不是在讨论华尔街那些机构的破产，我们是在讨论城镇主街上（那些人）的破产。如果我们不解决掉这次重大的财政危机，也许——不，毫无疑问地，在我们的有生之年，人们将失去他们的工作，他们的银行存款和他们的家。（笑）我已经伴随（金融危机）一段时间了。

But the point is -- the point is, we have finally seen Republicans and Democrats sitting down and negotiating together and coming up with a package.

但重点是——重点是，我们终于看到了，共和党人和民主党人坐下来一起磋商并将提出一系列方案（注：由于找不到中文对应于package的这个意思，只好用一系列方案来代替了）。

This package has transparency in it. It has to have accountability and oversight. It has to have options for loans to failing businesses, rather than the government taking over those loans. We have to -- it has to have a package with a number of other essential elements to it.

这些方案应该有透明性。它们应该可以落实责任和监管。它们应该包括转让衰退中的生意的债权，而不是让政府直接接管这些债权。我们必须——不，这些方案还应当包括许多其他的必需元素。

And, yes, I went back to Washington, and I met with my Republicans in the House of Representatives. And they weren't part of the negotiations, and I understand that. And it was the House Republicans that decided that they would be part of the solution to this problem.

还有，我回了一趟华盛顿，并会见了众议院的共和党议员们。他们并没有参与磋商，我理解。是共和党议会决定，他们也将是解决这次（金融危机）问题的一部分。

But I want to emphasize one point to all Americans tonight. This isn't the beginning of the end of this crisis. This is the end of the beginning, if we come out with a package that will keep these institutions stable.

但今晚我想对所有的美国人强调一点。现在不是金融危机尾声的序幕。即使我们拿出一系列解决方案使得那些（金融）机构稳定，现在也只是金融危机序幕的尾声。

And we've got a lot of work to do. And we've got to create jobs. And one of the areas, of course, is to eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.

我们还有很多事情要做。我们得创造就业岗位。而创造就业岗位中一件（要做的）事情就是消除我们对外国石油的依赖。

（注：个人以为麦凯恩在最后几句话里渲染金融危机的严重性，然后稍微透露一点“宏图和前景”，企图加强美国人对他的依赖感。很古老的招数，但政客们都在用。）

punkxxx

LEHRER: All right, let's go back to my question. How do you all stand on the recovery plan? And talk to each other about it. We've got five minutes. We can negotiate a deal right here.

主持人：好的，让我们回到我的问题。你们两位在经济救援计划中站在哪边？直接告诉对方。我们还有5分钟。我们现在就可以在这里商讨出一个结果。

But, I mean, are you -- do you favor this plan, Senator Obama, and you, Senator McCain? Do you -- are you in favor of this plan?

我（先前的）意思是，你们支持这个（经济救援）计划吗？奥巴马议员，还有你，麦凯恩议员？你支持这个计划吗？

OBAMA: We haven't seen the language yet. And I do think that there's constructive work being done out there. So, for the viewers who are watching, I am optimistic about the capacity of us to come together with a plan.

奥巴马：我们还没有看到这个计划。我认为在（国会）正在进行一项建设性的工作。所以，我想对观众们说，我对我们一起提出一项计划的能力表示乐观。

（注：奥巴马这里回避了主持人的问题。他还是没有说他究竟是支持还是不支持。他的回答是一个non-answer，我们称为打太极、不表态。）

The question, I think, that we have to ask ourselves is, how did we get into this situation in the first place?

问题是，我在想，我们应该问问我们自己的是，我们是如何首次进入这种状况的？

Two years ago, I warned that, because of the subprime lending mess, because of the lax regulation, that we were potentially going to have a problem and tried to stop some of the abuses in mortgages that were taking place at the time.

两年前，我就警告过，由于次级贷款的混乱，由于松懈的管理，我们可能正在走向潜伏的问题。我还试图阻止一些当时抵押的滥用。

Last year, I wrote to the secretary of the Treasury to make sure that he understood the magnitude of this problem and to call on him to bring all the stakeholders together to try to deal with it.

去年，我写信给财政部长，以确信他意识到这个问题的严重性。我呼吁他召集投资人设法解决这个问题。

So -- so the question, I think, that we've got to ask ourselves is, yes, we've got to solve this problem short term. And we are going to have to intervene; there's no doubt about that.

所以，这个我们询问自己的问题，我认为，我们应该在短期内解决金融问题。我们需要干涉了，不容怀疑。

But we're also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad.

但我们也需要看看，是什么让我们撕裂了那么多的（金融）管理？我们没有设立一个21世纪的管理框架来处理这些问题。而这（金融危机）部分地与一种经济理念有关。这种经济理念说（金融）管理总是坏的。

（注：奥巴马不但回避了问题，而且开始了强烈地对布什政府，以及支持布什政府的麦凯恩议员的抨击，认为他们的观念有问题。）

cnwelf

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punkxxx

LEHRER: Are you going to vote for the plan, Senator McCain?

主持人：你会支持（金融拯救）计划吗，麦凯恩议员？

MCCAIN: I -- I hope so. And I...

麦凯恩：我——我希望是，而且我……

LEHRER: As a United States senator...

主持人：作为一位美国的议员……

MCCAIN: Sure.

麦凯恩：当然。

LEHRER: ... you're going to vote for the plan?

主持人：……你是说你会投票支持这个计划？

MCCAIN: Sure. But -- but let me -- let me point out, I also warned about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and warned about corporate greed and excess, and CEO pay, and all that. A lot of us saw this train wreck coming.

麦凯恩：当然。但是——请让我——让我指出来，我同样也警告过了联邦抵押协会和联邦房贷抵押机构，警告过了（金融）企业的贪婪和无度，还有CEO的（高）薪水，所有这些。我们很多人都看到了这火车即将来临的失事。

（注：Fannie Mae = Federal National Mortgage Association, Freddie Mac = Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation)

But there's also the issue of responsibility. You've mentioned President Dwight David Eisenhower. President Eisenhower, on the night before the Normandy invasion, went into his room, and he wrote out two letters.

但这里同样要考虑责任的问题。你（主持人）提到了总统德怀特.大卫.艾森豪威尔。艾森豪威尔总统在进攻诺曼底的前夜，走进他的房间，写了两封信。

One of them was a letter congratulating the great members of the military and allies that had conducted and succeeded in the greatest invasion in history, still to this day, and forever.

其中一封信是庆祝部队和盟军中的杰出成员成功地完成了历史上最伟大的一次进攻，到现在，直到永远。

And he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy.

他还写了另一封信。那是一封向美国军方的辞职信。辞职的理由是诺曼底登陆的失败。

Somehow we've lost that accountability. I've been heavily criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. We've got to start also holding people accountable, and we've got to reward people who succeed.

不知何故，我们的责任没有落实。我一直饱受批评，因为我要求证券交易委员会的主席辞职。我们得让人们（为自己的工作）负责，并奖励那些（工作上）成功的人们。

But somehow in Washington today -- and I'm afraid on Wall Street -- greed is rewarded, excess is rewarded, and corruption -- or certainly failure to carry out our responsibility is rewarded.

然而，在今天的华盛顿——我恐怕华尔街也是，不知为何，贪婪得到奖励，无度得到奖励，而腐败，或者无疑地说失职得到奖励。

As president of the United States, people are going to be held accountable in my administration. And I promise you that that will happen.

（如果）我是美国总统，在我的管理下，人们将（为自己的工作）负责。我向你们保证那将实现。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Do you have something directly to say, Senator Obama, to Senator McCain about what he just said?

主持人：你有没有一些对麦凯恩议员刚才所说的话直接要说的，奥巴马议员？

OBAMA: Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.

奥巴马：嗯，我认为我们确实需要更多的责任（感），麦凯恩议员（在这点上）完全正确，但我们不应只在危机出现的时候才需要它（注：奥巴马此言，已经在影射麦凯恩及执政的共和党人在之前的不负责任，导致了现在的这场金融危机）。我指的是，在过去的数年时间里，占统治地位的经济思想总是考虑什么对华尔街有利，而不是什么对城镇大街（上的人们）有利。

And there are folks out there who've been struggling before this crisis took place. And that's why it's so important, as we solve this short-term problem, that we look at some of the underlying issues that have led to wages and incomes for ordinary Americans to go down, the -- a health care system that is broken, energy policies that are not working, because, you know, 10 days ago, John said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.

而且，在（金融）危机发生之前，就有那么一些人在（辛苦地）挣扎了。这也是为什么我们在解决这个短期（金融）问题的时候，看看一些深层次的问题是如此重要。这些问题让普通美国人的工资和收入下降，让医疗系统破碎，让能源政策失效。因为……你知道，10天前，约翰（麦凯恩）还在说经济的根本还是健康的。

（注：奥巴马在这句话的最后提到“因为……”时，停顿了一下，他其实真正想说的是“就是像麦凯恩这样的共和党人导致了现在的金融问题”，但他需要仔细斟酌措辞，不能说得太过，以免被对手抓住把柄。麦凯恩其实也有苦衷，10天前他还没有意识到金融危机是如此迅速地展现在了所有人面前，他还以为那些华尔街的投资银行可以撑一段时间。也因为他还需要支撑住他背后的共和党，需要修饰共和党的执政能力。这使得他不得不硬着头皮说“经济根本还是健康的”。不料到了今天辩论的时候，几大投资银行相继破产或转行，他所说过的话也就成了奥巴马所攻击的把柄。这其实和某些人说“照片是真的”有异曲同工之妙。下面就看麦凯恩如何拆招了。）

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

主持人：直接向他（麦凯恩）说。

OBAMA: I do not think that they are.

奥巴马：我不认为经济的根本是健康的。

LEHRER: Say it directly to him.

主持人：直接向他（麦凯恩）说。

OBAMA: Well, the -- John, 10 days ago, you said that the
fundamentals of the economy are sound. And...

奥巴马：好的，约翰，10天前，你还在说经济的根本还是健康的，而……

MCCAIN: Are you afraid I couldn't hear him?

麦凯恩：（笑对主持人）你担心我听不到他说话吗？

(LAUGHTER)
（笑声）

LEHRER: I'm just determined to get you all to talk to each
other. I'm going to try.

主持人：我只是想要让你们俩互相交流。我想试试（笑）。

OBAMA: The -- and I just fundamentally disagree. And unless we are holding ourselves accountable day in, day out, not just when there's a crisis for folks who have power and influence and can hire lobbyists, but for the nurse, the teacher, the police officer, who, frankly, at the end of each month, they've got a little financial crisis going on.

奥巴马：而我根本就不同意这点。除非我们不论什么时候都让我们（对我们的工作）负责，而不是在出现危机的时候。（这危机只是）让某些有权力和影响力的人可以雇佣说客（而已），而坦白地说，对于护士、教师、警员，每个月的月末，都有着金融危机在上演（注：这里指房贷）。

They're having to take out extra debt just to make their mortgage payments. We haven't been paying attention to them. And if you look at our tax policies, it's a classic example.

他们必须拿出额外的钱来偿还抵押贷款。我们一直没有注意到他们。但你们如果看看我们的税收政策，那就是一个典型的例子（注：指税收和房贷一样，都在抽取着普通美国人的收入）。

punkxxx

LEHRER: So, Senator McCain, do you agree with what Senator Obama just said? And, if you don't, tell him what you disagree with.

主持人：那么，麦凯恩议员，你同意奥巴马议员刚才所说的吗？如果你不同意，告诉他你不同意什么。

MCCAIN: No, I -- look, we've got to fix the system. We've got fundamental problems in the system. And Main Street is paying a penalty for the excesses and greed in Washington, D.C., and in the Wall Street.

麦凯恩：（我）不同意。我……你看，我们得修理（我们的金融）系统。这个系统的根本有些问题，而城镇大街（上的人们）正在为华盛顿和华尔街的无度和贪婪付出代价。

So there's no doubt that we have a long way to go. And, obviously, stricter interpretation and consolidation of the various regulatory agencies that weren't doing their job, that has brought on this crisis.

所以，毫不怀疑，我们有很长的路要走。而且，很明显地，对各种各样没有做好他们工作而导致了这场（金融）危机的管理机构（实行）更加严格的整理和合并。

（注：好个太极推手。麦凯恩接过奥巴马的咄咄逼人的锋头，顺势将这股力打向了金融管理机构。须知麦凯恩竞选的一个主要口号就是他要规整政府部门，改整机构。麦凯恩努力让大家把注意力集中在金融机构的失职上，而不是执政的共和党上，可谓用心良苦。然则美国老百姓也不是傻子。实事求是地说，这次金融危机，作为执政党的共和党确有较大责任。麦凯恩这一捣浆糊，看来很难糊弄过去。）

But I have a fundamental belief in the goodness and strength of the American worker. And the American worker is the most productive, the most innovative. America is still the greatest producer, exporter and importer.

但我心中深信美国劳动人民的善良和力量。而且美国劳动人民是富有生产力和创造力的（人民）。美国仍然是（世界上）最大的生产国、出口国和进口国。

（注：当政客甜言蜜语地夸奖老百姓的能力时，就是要让老百姓做牛做马的时候了。麦凯恩寄希望于美国人民努力工作，把金融危机的洞给填实喽。这一招实在是失策啊！占人口大多数的美国工人不会吃这一套。而奥巴马想要从大企业家和富翁身上剥层皮来填金融的大洞，显然更能得到大多数美国人的欢心。从现在的支持率来看，也是如此。）

But we've got to get through these times, but I have a fundamental belief in the United States of America. And I still believe, under the right leadership, our best days are ahead of us.

但我们一定要熬过这段时间，我深信美利坚合众国（能做到）。我还相信，在正确的领导下，幸福的生活就在我们前头。

punkxxx

LEHRER: All right, let's go to the next lead question, which is essentially following up on this same subject.

主持人：好，让我们进入下一个引导问题。这个引导问题实质上是第一个问题的深化。

And you get two minutes to begin with, Senator McCain. And using your word "fundamental," are there fundamental differences between your approach and Senator Obama's approach to what you would do as president to lead this country out of the financial crisis?

主持人：麦凯恩议员，（这）两分钟从你那里开始。（我）用你的词语“本质”。如果作为总统，领导这个国家走出经济危机，你的方法和奥巴马议员的方法有什么本质上的区别？

MCCAIN: Well, the first thing we have to do is get spending under control in Washington. It's completely out of control. It's gone -- we have now presided over the largest increase in the size of government since the Great Society.

麦凯恩：呃，我们得做的第一件事情就是控制华盛顿（注：指美国政府）的开销。它（开销）完全无法控制了。它已经脱缰而出——我们现在是眼巴巴地看着（我们）建国以来政府规模最大的膨胀。

We Republicans came to power to change government, and government changed us. And the -- the worst symptom on this disease is what my friend, Tom Coburn, calls earmarking as a gateway drug, because it's a gateway. It's a gateway to out-of-control spending and corruption.

我们共和党人拥有了改变政府的力量，而政府也改变了我们。而——这种病最坏的症状，正如我的朋友，汤姆.科本所说，财政特别拨款是一种入门毒品，因为那是一扇门，一扇通向不受控制的花销和腐败的大门。

（注：麦凯恩这里没有说只有民主党人有腐败，而是坦诚说道共和党人也有人中毒了。gateway drug: 有一种假设，认为服用不大容易上瘾的药品可能会引人服用更加危险的毒品甚至引人犯罪。香烟、酒精等常常被人们称为gateway drug。我这里把它翻译为入门毒品。）

And we have former members of Congress now residing in federal prison because of the evils of this earmarking and pork-barrel spending.

我们国会的一些前成员，因为在财政拨款和地方建设经费上犯的错误，现在正蹲在联邦监狱里面。

You know, we spent $3 million to study the DNA of bears in Montana. I don't know if that was a criminal issue or a paternal issue, but the fact is that it was $3 million of our taxpayers' money. And it has got to be brought under control.

你知道吗，我们花费了300万美元，用在研究蒙大纳州的熊的DNA上面。我不知道这究竟是（有人）犯罪还是家长式作风，但事实上是，那可是我们纳税人的300万美元呐。那应该被控制住。

（注：蒙大纳州：美国西北部与加拿大接壤的一个州。1889年被接纳为美国第41个州。大部分地区通过1803年路易斯安那的购买归属美国，路易斯和克拉克在 1805年和1806年勘查了此地。经过多年在其他西部地区分裂之后在1864年组成蒙大纳地区。赫勒拿是该州首府，比林斯是最大城市。人口 803,655）

As president of the United States, I want to assure you, I've got a pen. This one's kind of old. I've got a pen, and I'm going to veto every single spending bill that comes across my desk. I will make them famous. You will know their names.

（如果我）作为美国的总统，我要向你们保证——我有一只钢笔，这只有几分旧了——我有一只钢笔，而我将会否决掉每一笔经过我办公桌的开销提议。我会让它们臭名昭著。你们将知道它们的名字。

Now, Senator Obama, you wanted to know one of the differences. He has asked for $932 million of earmark pork-barrel spending, nearly a million dollars for every day that he's been in the United States Senate.

现在，奥巴马议员，你想要知道我们的一个区别。他（奥巴马）已经请求了9.32亿美元的财政拨款，自他当上美国议员后的每一天几乎都要走了100万美元。

I suggest that people go up on the Web site of Citizens Against Government Waste, and they'll look at those projects.

我建议人们登陆反对政府浪费公民网，就会看到（奥巴马）那些项目。

That kind of thing is not the way to rein in runaway spending in Washington, D.C. That's one of the fundamental differences that Senator Obama and I have.

那样的事情不是让华盛顿的开销放慢下来的做法。这就是我和奥巴马议员的一个本质的区别。

（注：麦凯恩终于亮牌了，且看奥巴马下面如何应对。）

punkxxx

LEHRER: Senator Obama, two minutes.

主持人：奥巴马议员，两分钟。

OBAMA: Well, Senator McCain is absolutely right that the earmarks process has been abused, which is why I suspended any requests for my home state, whether it was for senior centers or what have you, until we cleaned it up.

奥巴马：呃，好的，特别拨款程序已经被滥用了，麦凯恩议员（在这一点上）完全正确。这也是为什么我暂停了来自我家乡的任何（拨款）申请，不论是为了老年中心还是诸如此类，直到我们（政府）有了盈余为止。

（注： Earmark -> 在美国，Earmark指的是议员为他们的州或者地区所争取到的特别拨款。每个州或地区的居民选出一个议员来代表他们的利益，而这个议员则会向国会争取特别拨款来建设他们的家乡。这些财政拨款来自于所有美国人的税收。这些钱可称得上是取之于民，用之于民。如果议员将其中一部分钱据为己有，就叫作 "pork barrel"。一些联邦的议员已经为此进了大牢。）

And he's also right that oftentimes lobbyists and special interests are the ones that are introducing these kinds of requests, although that wasn't the case with me.

而且很多时候说客和特殊需要是引入这类（拨款）申请的源头，他（麦凯恩）（在这一点上）也是正确的。然而我的情况却有所不同。

But let's be clear: Earmarks account for $18 billion in last year's budget. Senator McCain is proposing -- and this is a fundamental difference between us -- $300 billion in tax cuts to some of the wealthiest corporations and individuals in the country, $300 billion.

让我们把话说清楚：在去年的预算中，特别拨款占了180亿美元。麦凯恩议员建议——这是我们俩的一个本质上的区别——向某些这个国家上最为富有的企业和个人的3000亿美元的减税计划，3000亿美元。

Now, $18 billion is important; $300 billion is really important. And in his tax plan, you would have CEOs of Fortune 500 companies getting an average of $700,000 in reduced taxes, while leaving 100 million Americans out.

现在，180亿美元重要；3000亿美元则非常重要。在他（麦凯恩）的减税计划中，你会发现财富500强企业的CEO们平均减税70万美元，而一亿美国人却被排除在外。

So my attitude is, we've got to grow the economy from the bottom up. What I've called for is a tax cut for 95 percent of working families, 95 percent.

所以我的态度是，我们得让经济从底层增长起来。我所呼吁的是向百分之95的工薪家庭的减税计划，百分之95。

And that means that the ordinary American out there who's collecting a paycheck every day, they've got a little extra money to be able to buy a computer for their kid, to fill up on this gas that is killing them.

那意味着那些每天都在挣薪水普通美国人，会有一些额外的钱来给他们的孩子购买电脑，来（给他们的车）加满那些要他们命的汽油。

And over time, that, I think, is going to be a better recipe for economic growth than the -- the policies of President Bush that John McCain wants to -- wants to follow.

而随着时间的过去，我认为，（我的方案）将是让经济增长的更好的处方——比麦凯恩议员想要遵循的布什总统的政策更好。

LEHRER: Senator McCain?

主持人：麦凯恩议员？

MCCAIN: Well, again, I don't mean to go back and forth, but he...

麦凯恩：这个，我再说一次，我不是要来回扯皮，但是他……

(CROSSTALK)
（插话）

LEHRER: No, that's fine.

主持人：没关系。

MCCAIN: Senator Obama suspended those requests for pork-barrel projects after he was running for president of the United States. He didn't happen to see that light during the first three years as a member of the United States Senate, $932 million in requests.

麦凯恩：奥巴马议员在竞选美国总统开始後就停止了那些拨款申请项目。而在他作为美国议会成员的前三年，没有见过他良心发现，9.32亿美元的申请啊。

（注：麦凯恩真够阴的，这句话我认为是在诱导听众制造假象。只要仔细思考一下，就会知道奥巴马之所以在竞选总统後停止了拨款申请，很有可能是因为太忙了，没有时间去国会辩论、争取那些建设经费了。而麦凯恩这么说乃是要误导听众，让大家以为是奥巴马在竞选总统後，为了装纯洁，而暂时放弃了拨款申请。）

Maybe to Senator Obama it's not a lot of money. But the point is that -- you see, I hear this all the time. "It's only $18 billion." Do you know that it's tripled in the last five years? Do you know that it's gone completely out of control to the point where it corrupts people? It corrupts people.

也许对奥巴马议员来说那算不上多少钱。但问题是——你看，我总是听到这个:（又尖又长的挖苦音调）“不过是180亿美元”。你知道那（特别拨款）在过去五年里翻了三倍吗？你知道那已经脱缰而出无法控制，以至于腐化官员了吗？它腐化着人们。

That's why we have, as I said, people under federal indictment and charges. It's a system that's got to be cleaned up.

那就是为什么，如我所说，一些人遭到联邦起诉和控告。这是一个急需修整的系统。

I have fought against it my career. I have fought against it. I was called the sheriff, by the -- one of the senior members of the Appropriations Committee. I didn't win Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate.

在我的职业生涯中，我一直在与之（腐败）斗争。我被一位财政拨款局的高级成员称为“县官”。我可不是美国议会中的好好先生。

punkxxx

Now, Senator Obama didn't mention that, along with his tax cuts, he is also proposing some $800 billion in new spending on new programs.

麦凯恩：现在，奥巴马议员没有提到，伴随着他的减税计划，还有用于新项目的8000亿美元的花费。

Now, that's a fundamental difference between myself and Senator Obama. I want to cut spending. I want to keep taxes low. The worst thing we could do in this economic climate is to raise people's taxes.

那就是我和奥巴马议员的一个本质区别。我想要消减（政府）花费。我想要保持低税率。在当前的经济气候下，最坏的事情就是从人民那里增加税收了。

OBAMA: I -- I don't know where John is getting his figures. Let's just be clear. What I do is I close corporate loopholes, stop providing tax cuts to corporations that are shipping jobs overseas so that we're giving tax breaks to companies that are investing here in the United States. I make sure that we have a health care system that allows for everyone to have basic coverage.

奥巴马：我——我不知道约翰（麦凯恩）从哪里得到他那些数据。让我们说清楚点。我所做的事情是关闭公司的漏洞，停止对那些向海外输出工作（机会）的企业的减税。这样我们才可以给在美国本土投资的企业减税。我确保我们有一个让每个人都得到基本覆盖的医疗系统。

I think those are pretty important priorities. And I pay for every dime of it.

我认为这些是要优先考虑的重要的事情。我会为之花出每一分钱。

But let's go back to the original point. John, nobody is denying that $18 billion is important. And, absolutely, we need earmark reform. And when I'm president, I will go line by line to make sure that we are not spending money unwisely.

但让我们回到开始的问题。约翰（麦凯恩），没有人否认180亿美元的重要性。而且，我们也的的确确需要改革专项拨款（制度）。当我是总统时，我将会一行一行地（检查拨款提议以）确保我们没有不智地乱花钱。

But the fact is that eliminating earmarks alone is not a recipe for how we're going to get the middle class back on track.

但问题是仅仅消除专项拨款，并不是让中产阶级回到正常轨道上来的办法。

OBAMA: And when you look at your tax policies that are directed primarily at those who are doing well, and you are neglecting people who are really struggling right now, I think that is a continuation of the last eight years, and we can't afford another four.

你看看你的税收政策，它主要对准的是那些（工作）做得好的人们，而你还在忽视那些现在正在挣扎着的人们。我认为那（麦凯恩的政策）是过去八年的延续，我们不能承受再一个四年了。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Respond directly to him about that, to Senator Obama about that, about the -- he's made it twice now, about your tax -- your policies about tax cuts.

主持人：（麦凯恩议员，）直接向奥巴马议员回答那个，那个）——他已经指出来两次了，关于你的减税政策。

MCCAIN: Well -- well, let me give you an example of what Senator Obama finds objectionable, the business tax.

麦凯恩：这个——这个，让我给你们一个被奥巴马议员找出来反对的例子，商业税。

Right now, the United States of American business pays the second-highest business taxes in the world, 35 percent. Ireland pays 11 percent.

目前，在美利坚合众国的生意缴纳着世界第二高的商业税，百分之35。在爱尔兰（只需）缴纳百分之11。

Now, if you're a business person, and you can locate any place in the world, then, obviously, if you go to the country where it's 11 percent tax versus 35 percent, you're going to be able to create jobs, increase your business, make more investment, et cetera.

现在，如果你是一个生意人，而你可以（把你的生意）放在世界上的任何位置，然后，显然，相对于收百分之35税的国家，如果你去只收百分之11的国家，你将可以创造工作机会，做大你的生意，作出更多的投资，等等。

I want to cut that business tax. I want to cut it so that businesses will remain in -- in the United States of America and create jobs.

我希望削减商业税。我希望削减它使得生意能够留在——留在美利坚合众国并创造工作（机会）。

But, again, I want to return. It's a lot more than $18 billion in pork-barrel spending. I can tell you, it's rife. It's throughout.

但，再说一次，我想回到（特别拨款的话题）。它远比180亿美元的建设经费花销多。我可以告诉你，它相当普遍，它已经遍及了（整个议会）。

The United States Senate will take up a continuing resolution tomorrow or the next day, sometime next week, with 2,000 -- 2,000 -- look at them, my friends. Look at them. You'll be appalled.

美国参议院将要继续一项决议，明天，也许后天，也许下个周。那是2000——2000——瞅瞅那个，我的朋友。瞅瞅，你会被吓坏的。

And Senator Obama is a recent convert, after requesting $932 million worth of pork-barrel spending projects.

而奥巴马议员最近洗手了，在申请了价值9.32亿美元的特别拨款项目后。

So the point is, I want people to have tax cuts. I want every family to have a $5,000 refundable tax credit so they can go out and purchase their own health care. I want to double the dividend from $3,500 to $7,000 for every dependent child in America.

所以问题是，我希望人们得到减税。我希望每个家庭得到五千美元的退税，这样，他们能出去购买他们自己的医疗保障。我希望每一个抚养美国贫苦儿童的奖金翻番，由3500美元到7000美元。

I know that the worst thing we could possibly do is to raise taxes on anybody, and a lot of people might be interested in Senator Obama's definition of "rich."

我知道我们最糟的做法也许就是向任何人增加税收，而许许多多人也许都会对奥巴马议员所谓的“富裕”感兴趣。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Senator Obama, you have a question for Senator McCain on that?

主持人：奥巴马议员，对麦凯恩议员刚才所说的有问题吗？

OBAMA: Well, let me just make a couple of points.

奥巴马：呃，让我指出几点来。

LEHRER: All right.

主持人：好的。

OBAMA: My definition -- here's what I can tell the American people: 95 percent of you will get a tax cut. And if you make less than $250,000, less than a quarter-million dollars a year, then you will not see one dime's worth of tax increase.

奥巴马：我的（关于富裕的）定义——这里是我可以告诉美国人民的：你们中的百分之95都将得到减税。而如果你的收入少于25万美元，每年少于25万美元，你将不会看到（哪怕是）一分钱的税收增加。

Now, John mentioned the fact that business taxes on paper are high in this country, and he's absolutely right. Here's the problem: There are so many loopholes that have been written into the tax code, oftentimes with support of Senator McCain, that we actually see our businesses pay effectively one of the lowest tax rates in the world.

现在，约翰（麦凯恩）提到这个国家的商业税在纸面上很高的这个事实，他完全正确。问题是：我们有太多的漏洞写进了税务法，这些漏洞常常就是麦凯恩议员支持的，以致于我们国家的商业活动实际上缴纳是世界上最低的税率之一。

And what that means, then, is that there are people out there who are working every day, who are not getting a tax cut, and you want to give them more.

那意味着什么？那意味着那些每天工作的人们，他们没有得到减税，而你还想要从他们那里收取更多（税）。

It's not like you want to close the loopholes. You just want to add an additional tax cut over the loopholes. And that's a problem.

似乎你不是想要关闭那些漏洞。只是想在那些（免税）漏洞上（向富人）提供更多的减税。而那就是问题所在。

Just one last point I want to make, since Senator McCain talked about providing a $5,000 health credit. Now, what he doesn't tell you is that he intends to, for the first time in history, tax health benefits.

既然麦凯恩议员谈到了提供5000美元的退税（计划），我还想指出最后一点。那些他没有告诉你们的，那就是，他企图有史以来首次向医疗保险收税。

So you may end up getting a $5,000 tax credit. Here's the only problem: Your employer now has to pay taxes on the health care that you're getting from your employer. And if you end up losing your health care from your employer, you've got to go out on the open market and try to buy it.

所以你们最终也许能得到5000美元的退税。唯一的问题是：你们的老板现在得为向你们提供的医疗保险缴税。而且如果你们最终（由于老板不愿意缴税）而失去了你们老板所提供的医疗保险，你们只能到外面去自己给自己买一份。

It is not a good deal for the American people. But it's an example of this notion that the market can always solve everything and that the less regulation we have, the better off we're going to be.

这对美国人民来说可不是一件好事。但这就是采纳（麦凯恩的）这个观念一个例子。这观念认为市场可以解决一切问题，对市场的管理越少，我们的日子就会过得越好。

punkxxx

MCCAIN: Well, you know, let me just...

麦凯恩：呃，你知道，让我只是……

LEHRER: We've got to go to another lead question.

主持人：（打断）我们得进入下一个引导问题了。

MCCAIN: I know we have to, but this is a classic example of walking the walk and talking the talk.

麦凯恩：（打断）我知道我们得（进入下一个问题）了，但（奥巴马）的行为是一个典型的做归做，说归说的例子。

（注： Walking the walk, and talking the talk。最早源自亚里士多德的追随者，他们通常一边走来走去，一边讨论着哲学问题。后来，这些人就被称为“Walk the talk”，即“实践着谈论”，因为他们的讨论就是在实践。而“Walk the walk”后来就指实践活动，“Talk the talk”则指高谈阔论。）

We had an energy bill before the United States Senate. It was festooned with Christmas tree ornaments. It had all kinds of breaks for the oil companies, I mean, billions of dollars worth. I voted against it; Senator Obama voted for it.

美国国会之前曾有过一个能源议案。它用圣诞树上的装饰品打扮得很好。它有着各种各样的向石油公司的减税，我指的是，价值几十亿美元的税。我投票反对了这个议案，而奥巴马议员投票支持了这个议案。

OBAMA: John, you want to give oil companies another $4 billion.

奥巴马：（插话）约翰（麦凯恩），你想要给石油公司另外40亿美元的减税。

MCCAIN: You've got to look at our record. You've got to look at our records. That's the important thing.

麦凯恩：（打断）我们必须瞅瞅自己的过去。瞅瞅自己的过去。那很重要。

Who fought against wasteful and earmark spending? Who has been the person who has tried to keep spending under control? Who's the person who has believed that the best thing for America is -- is to have a tax system that is fundamentally fair? And I've fought to simplify it, and I have proposals to simplify it.

谁在和浪费的拨款项目花销作斗争？谁是那个一直试图在控制花销的人？谁认为对美国最好的东西就是……就是一个根本上公平的税收系统？我一直在为精简（开销）而战斗，而且我提出了精简它的办法。

Let's give every American a choice: two tax brackets, generous dividends, and, two -- and let Americans choose whether they want the -- the existing tax code or they want a new tax code.

让我们给每个美国人一个选择：两个缴税等级（指富人和穷人缴纳不同的税率），高利息，还有，两个——让美国人民来选择他们想要哪个——旧的税务法还是想要一个新的税务法。

And so, again, look at the record, particularly the energy bill. But, again, Senator Obama has shifted on a number of occasions. He has voted in the United States Senate to increase taxes on people who make as low as $42,000 a year.

所以，再说一次，看看（奥巴马）以前的记录，特别是那能源议案。奥巴马议员在多个场合过改变（他的立场）。他曾经在美国议会投票支持向那些年收入只有4.2万美元之低的人增税。

OBAMA: That's not true, John. That's not true.

奥巴马：（插话）那不是真的，约翰。那不是真的。

MCCAIN: And that's just a fact. Again, you can look it up.

麦凯恩：（打断）那就是事实。我再说一次，你可以去查一下。

OBAMA: Look, it's just not true. And if we want to talk about oil company profits, under your tax plan, John -- this is undeniable -- oil companies would get an additional $4 billion in tax breaks.

奥巴马：听着，那不是真的。如果我们要谈谈石油公司的利润，在你的税收计划下，约翰（麦凯恩）——你否认不了——石油公司将得到额外40亿美元的减税。

Now, look, we all would love to lower taxes on everybody. But here's the problem: If we are giving them to oil companies, then that means that there are those who are not going to be getting them. And...

现在，听着，我们每个人都喜欢低税率。但问题是：如果我们给石油公司减税，那意味着另外一些人将得不到减税，而且……

MCCAIN: With all due respect, you already gave them to the oil companies.

麦凯恩：（打断）不好意思，你已经给那些石油公司减税了。

（注：with all due respect = with the admiration that is owed。我这里把它翻译为不好意思。它用于礼貌地对某个人的观点表示不赞同。）

OBAMA: No, but, John, the fact of the matter is, is that I was opposed to those tax breaks, tried to strip them out. We've got an emergency bill on the Senate floor right now that contains some good stuff, some stuff you want, including drilling off-shore, but you're opposed to it because it would strip away those tax breaks that have gone to oil companies.

奥巴马：（打断）没有，约翰，实际情况是，我反对了那些减税。试图把它们（减税的部分）（从能源提案中）剥离出去。现在，在议员席上我们就有一个紧急议案。它包含一些好的提议，包含一些你想要的提议，例如在海上钻井。但是你反对了它（议案）因为那可能会夺走那些已经给予了石油公司的减税。

punkxxx

LEHRER: All right. All right, speaking of things that both of you want, another lead question, and it has to do with the rescue -- the financial rescue thing that we started -- started asking about.

主持人：好了，好了，（在下一个问题里）说你们俩想说的吧，另一个问题。这个问题与救援行动有关——我们已经开始问（你们的）金融救援行动。

And what -- and the first answer is to you, Senator Obama. As president, as a result of whatever financial rescue plan comes about and the billion, $700 billion, whatever it is it's going to cost, what are you going to have to give up, in terms of the priorities that you would bring as president of the United States, as a result of having to pay for the financial rescue plan?

什么……呃，首先回答问题的是你，奥巴马议员。如果你是美国总统，在金融救援计划——不管是什么样的金融拯救计划还有那上亿，呃，7000亿美元，不管那将要花多少钱，在金融救援计划产生的结果中，你会放弃什么？作为美国总统的你会按优先级提出哪些来作为（执行）金融救援计划不得不付出的代价？

OBAMA: Well, there are a range of things that are probably going to have to be delayed. We don't yet know what our tax revenues are going to be. The economy is slowing down, so it's hard to anticipate right now what the budget is going to look like next year.

奥巴马：好的，我们有一大批事务可能都得延期了。我们还不知道税收将会怎样（增加或减少）。经济正在放缓，现在很难预测明年的预算将会是什么样。

But there's no doubt that we're not going to be able to do everything that I think needs to be done. There are some things that I think have to be done.

但毫不怀疑地，我们将不能做完所有我认为需要做的事情了。有些事情我认为我们必须得做。

（注：奥巴马重点强调了“需要”做的事和“必须”得做的事的区别。）

We have to have energy independence, so I've put forward a plan to make sure that, in 10 years' time, we have freed ourselves from dependence on Middle Eastern oil by increasing production at home, but most importantly by starting to invest in alternative energy, solar, wind, biodiesel, making sure that we're developing the fuel-efficient cars of the future right here in the United States, in Ohio and Michigan, instead of Japan and South Korea.

我们必须得实现能源独立。所以我已经拿出一个计划来确保在10年的时间内，解除我们对中东石油的依赖，靠增加（我们）自家的（石油）产量，但最重要的是开始投资代替（石油的）能源：太阳能，风能，生物柴油。确保我们将来就在我们这里，美国，在俄亥俄州和密歇根州，开发高效利用能源的汽车，而不是在日本或韩国。

（注：生物柴油，如甲酯，植物油，这些可以直接作为柴油机的燃料。）

We have to fix our health care system, which is putting an enormous burden on families. Just -- a report just came out that the average deductible went up 30 percent on American families.

我们得修整我们的医疗系统，它给（美国）家庭增加了巨大的负担。刚出来的……一个刚出来的报告说美国家庭医保的自费部分平均增加了百分之30。

（注：Deductible，可扣除部分，税务或保险专用术语。我将之翻译为自费部分，应该对我们中国人来说较好理解。）

They are getting crushed, and many of them are going bankrupt as a consequence of health care. I'm meeting folks all over the country. We have to do that now, because it will actually make our businesses and our families better off.

他们正被（医疗费用）压迫，他们中的许多家庭由于医疗开支就要破产了。我在全国各地都遇到了这样的人。我们现在得行动了，因为那样事实上会让我们的企业和家庭更美好。

（注：以我在美国所见到的，到处都是汽车，私人游艇，到处都是别墅，带着草坪，游泳池，环境不是一般般的好。超市门口的停车场比上海虹桥机场的停车场还要大，停放的汽车犹如盘子里的芝麻。整个西海岸，绵延一片全部是城市带，高速公路四通八达。美国如此富强的国家，那些家庭都已经因为医疗开支“就要破产” 了。这让我想起台湾物价上涨一点点，台湾人就抱怨物价太贵，活不下去了。还是我们国家好，物价再怎么涨，还是“对生活影响不大”。）

The third thing we have to do is we've got to make sure that we're competing in education. We've got to invest in science and technology. China had a space launch and a space walk. We've got to make sure that our children are keeping pace in math and in science.

我们得做的第三条就是我们得确保我们的教育有竞争力。我们必须得投资科学技术了。中国作了一次太空发射（指我们的神七）和太空行走。我们必须得确保我们的孩子在数学和科学上跟上节奏。

（注：中国还可以做得更好！只要我们给八亿农民公平的机会，给他们的孩子好一点的教育机会，多一点教育投入，让我们的教育投入占财政收入的比例在世界国家中不用倒着数。不是靠教育来挣钱，不是靠户口来剥夺农民的孩子公平的机会。我们中国自古以来就有不少伟大的思想家、教育家、科学家，十几亿人口，我相信我们的爱因斯坦就在其中。）

（同时，我还想到老祖宗的一句话：人贵有自知之明。美国人这么说，是他们的危机意识比较强。我们自己不能忘乎所以，连实际的科技水平在哪里都忘了。实际的情况是，1961年苏联就发射了宇宙飞船，加加林绕地球一周，成为历史上第一个进入太空的人类。70年代，美国发射行星探测器，先探测火星，然后继续飞向木星的几颗卫星，利用木星的引力作为动力，飞向土星的卫星，穿过土星光环，飞向冥王星，传输了无数有价值的资料。至今该探测器已经飞出太阳系外，还在不断地向地球传回数据。现在距离1961年已经快半个世纪了。曾记否，我们还拿不出一张自己的灾区的卫星图片，我们还没有国产的helicopter，甚至在失事之后，我们几天都找不到。那些为中国科技进步而高兴的朋友看到我说这些话请不要生气。因为只有正确地认识自己，才能认识世界。如果连自己都欺骗，那真的很可悲。）

And one of the things I think we have to do is make sure that college is affordable for every young person in America.

其中我认为我们得做的一件事是让每一个美国的年轻人都上得起大学。

（注：这里，奥巴马更多的是为美国的贫民，黑人争取利益。如果奥巴马竞选总统成功，这些人的状况当有所改善。）

And I also think that we're going to have to rebuild our infrastructure, which is falling behind, our roads, our bridges, but also broadband lines that reach into rural communities.

我也认为我们得要重建我们的基础建设，它已经落后了，我们的道路，桥梁，还有接入农村的宽带连接。

Also, making sure that we have a new electricity grid to get the alternative energy to population centers that are using them.

还有，确保我们有一个新的电网，使得那些人口中心能够用它作为替代能源。

So there are some -- some things that we've got to do structurally to make sure that we can compete in this global economy. We can't shortchange those things. We've got to eliminate programs that don't work, and we've got to make sure that the programs that we do have are more efficient and cost less.

所以，这里有一些——一些我们在结构上必须得做的事情，以确保我们能在当今全球经济中竞争。我们不能从这些上面省钱。我们得消除那些不起作用的计划，我们还得确保我们现有的计划更加有效，花销更少。

（注：奥巴马真是雄心勃勃。然奥巴马聪明之处在于他说了一大堆冠冕堂皇的话后，仍然没有回答主持人的问题。他确定地没有说他要放弃什么。而且，如果我是一个美国人，我对奥巴马能否实现他这些甜言蜜语将表示怀疑。毕竟 Action speaks louder than words。要取得美国人的信任，奥巴马还需要努力。）

punkxxx

LEHRER: Are you -- what priorities would you adjust, as president, Senator McCain, because of the -- because of the financial bailout cost?

主持人：你会……作为总统，你会给出一个什么样的优先级，麦凯恩议员，作为……作为金融拯救（计划）的代价？

MCCAIN: Look, we, no matter what, we've got to cut spending. We have -- as I said, we've let government get completely out of control.

麦凯恩：听着，我们，不管（发生）什么情况，都得控制花销。我们已经……如我所说，政府（的开销）已经完全失去控制了。

Senator Obama has the most liberal voting record in the United States Senate. It's hard to reach across the aisle from that far to the left.

奥巴马议员有着美国议会中最为慷慨的投票记录（注：指奥巴马花钱大手大脚）。江山易改，本性难移啊。

The point -- the point is -- the point is, we need to examine every agency of government.

问题……问题是……问题是，我们需要检查政府的每一个部门。

First of all, by the way, I'd eliminate ethanol subsidies. I oppose ethanol subsidies.

首先，我顺便说一下，我要取消酒精补助。我反对酒精补助。

（注：酒精补助。由于全球石油价格上涨，以及新能源开发的需要，美国开始用玉米来酿造酒精，用于内燃机的能源。为了鼓励大家酿造酒精，美国政府对酒精生产给予补助。2006年美国生产了49亿加仑的酒精，美国政府为之付出了70亿美元的补助。即每加仑酒精，补助1.45美元。用于酿造酒精的玉米都是转基因玉米，产量大，价格低。但是转基因玉米虽然便宜，也不是人吃的，美国人用它来喂狗，因为转基因食品可能对人体产生不可逆转的影响。）

（酒精补助在美国国内遭到了一些非议。例如，即使在2006年油价最高的时候，生产一加仑的酒精也只比生产一加仑的汽油多出38美分。那意味着每加仑酒精补助的 1.45美元中，有1.12美元都是实实在在的奖励。这让农场主、酒精生产工厂还有那些中间商发了一笔横财。纳税人为此抱怨不止，认为政府乱花他们的钱。）

（以上关于酒精补助的信息部分来源于zfacts (http://zfacts.com)，zfacts是一个讨论（美国）各类有争议性的时事话题的站点，如，税收，财富，工作，战争以及环境。）

（大家也许会问，为什么麦凯恩会反对酒精补助呢？这是因为麦凯恩所代表的，有一部分是美国军工和石油巨头的利益，大家在后面会看到麦凯恩和奥巴马关于伊拉克局势截然不同的观点。）

（大家不要一看到麦凯恩代表了资本家的利益，就习惯性地认为麦凯恩是”坏“的。这其实是我们国内教育环境下的一种定势思维。用我们老祖宗的一句话来说：兵无常势，水无常形。没有人是天生的资本家，也没有人是天生的苦力。这两种人都是可能互相转换的。在一个公平竞争的社会环境下，老板之所以称为老板，在于他过人的胆识和智慧，再加上点运气。资本家一样为社会作出贡献，我不敢说资本家和工人的贡献谁更大，但那就只是不同的社会分工而已。一个公平的社会，资本家和工人应该是势力均衡的，资本家考虑的是更自由的市场，更公平的环境，更精简的政府，资本家还有着对外扩张的野心。正如你们将在麦凯恩的语言中看到的一样。而资本家的这种行为，对本国人民来说，未必是件坏事。工人则会考虑的更多的社会福利，医疗，教育。这些社会福利的钱来自于税收。工人和资本家的分歧就在于政策的天平往哪个方向多倾斜一点而已。）

（在一个均衡的环境下，政策的天平总是微微晃动着。有时候资本家垄断了太多资源，并剥削工人以致于他们只能简单再生产，无法给他的孩子好的教育，无法得到医疗保障，没有成长成为资本家的机会。政策就要倾向于对资本家多征税，多制约，再将这些税用于社会福利。）

（有时税向资本家收得太多，这些税收又用于社会福利，使得工人福利太好，以致于大家都乐意吃大锅饭，社会变得懒散，科技开始停滞，就要减少征税，鼓励大家自己为自己的未来打拼。）

（任何一方的坐大，都将使得社会变得畸形。而畸形的社会只能畸形发展。对于美国来说，代表资本家利益的共和党已经执政了八年，现在是时候考虑一下社会的福利问题了。）

I think that we have to return -- particularly in defense spending, which is the largest part of our appropriations -- we have to do away with cost-plus contracts. We now have defense systems that the costs are completely out of control.

麦凯恩：我认为我们得回到（节省的政府）了——特别是在国防开支上。它占据了最多的特别拨款——我们得废除这个（国防的）“加价合同”。我们现在的国防系统开支已经完全失控了。

（注： cost-plus contract，项目招投标专用术语，指的是可加价合同。指承包人在完成项目後可以根据自己的实际花销报价，或者是增加价格，以弥补由于当初订合同时考虑不周而忽略的款项。相对于cost-plus contract的是fixed-price contract，即固定价格合同。而这里的cost-plus contract指的就是政府议员通过特别拨款法案从而在预算外额外增加国防拨款，这个行为看上去就好像国防开支这个项目与美国纳税人之间订了一个加价合同一样。）

We tried to build a little ship called the Littoral Combat Ship that was supposed to cost $140 million, ended up costing $400 million, and we still haven't done it.

我们曾经要研发一种叫”海岸战舰“的小型战舰。我们预期花费1.4亿美元，结果我们花了4亿美元，而且战舰的研发还没有结束。

（注： Littoral combat ship，一种美国海军的下一代轻型战舰。最早于2004年提出设计蓝图。其研发目标是创建一种小巧、快速、机动性强而且相对价格较低的战舰，它隶属于朱姆沃尔特级驱逐舰类。它将容易被配置于多种用途，这些用途包括反潜战、反水雷、海面作战、侦察、后勤等等。）

So we need to have fixed-cost contracts. We need very badly to understand that defense spending is very important and vital, particularly in the new challenges we face in the world, but we have to get a lot of the cost overruns under control.

所以我们得要一个“固定价格合同”（注：指国防开支严格按照预算执行）。（我知道）我们得高度重视国防开支的重要性和关键性，特别是我们在这个世界上面临到的新挑战方面，但是我们必须得控制这许许多多的开销泛滥。

I know how to do that.

我知道该怎么去做。

MCCAIN: I saved the taxpayers $6.8 billion by fighting a contract that was negotiated between Boeing and DOD that was completely wrong. And we fixed it and we killed it and the people ended up in federal prison so I know how to do this because I've been involved these issues for many, many years. But I think that we have to examine every agency of government and find out those that are doing their job and keep them and find out those that aren't and eliminate them and we'll have to scrub every agency of government.

麦凯恩：我曾经抗争过一个波音公司和美国国防部之间的完全错误的合同，从而为纳税人省下了68亿美元。我们修订了它（合同）并最後取消了它。那些人（注：指美国国防部最初去签订合同的人）最终进了联邦监狱。我与这种事情战斗了许多，许多年，这就是为什么我知道怎么去做（减少政府开销）。我认为我们必须得检查每一个政府部门，留下那些认真做好他们工作的部门，解散那些没有做好工作的部门。最终我们将净化每一个政府部门。

（注：DOD = United States Department of Defense.)

punkxxx

LEHRER: But if I hear the two of you correctly neither one of you is suggesting any major changes in what you want to do as president as a result of the financial bailout? Is that what you're saying?

主持人：（迷惑）但如果我没有听错的话，你们俩都没有提出由于金融拯救的后果，你们成为美国总统后做法的主要变化。你们的回答是这样的吗？

OBAMA: No. As I said before, Jim, there are going to be things that end up having to be ...

奥巴马：不。我刚才说过了，吉姆（主持人），有一些事务最终将不得不……

LEHRER: Like what?

主持人：例如哪些事务？

OBAMA: ... deferred and delayed. Well, look, I want to make sure that we are investing in energy in order to free ourselves from the dependence on foreign oil. That is a big project. That is a multi-year project.

奥巴马：……不得不推到后面去做和延迟了。呃，你看，我想确保我们对能源的投资，这样，我们就能解放我们对外国石油的依赖。那是一个很大的计划，那是一个多年计划。

LEHRER: Not willing to give that up?

主持人：（你）不会放弃它（能源投资）？

OBAMA: Not willing to give up the need to do it but there may be individual components that we can't do. But John is right we have to make cuts. We right now give $15 billion every year as subsidies to private insurers under the Medicare system. Doesn't work any better through the private insurers. They just skim off $15 billion. That was a give away and part of the reason is because lobbyists are able to shape how Medicare works.They did it on the Medicaid prescription drug bill, they've done it with respect to Medicare. and we're gonna have to change the culture.

奥巴马：（我）不会放弃执行它的需要，但（其中）一些个别事务我们不能做了。我们得削减（支出），约翰（麦凯恩）在这点上是对的。现在我们每年都要给医疗保障制度下的一些私营保险公司发放150亿美元的补助。（但医疗保障却）没有通过这些私营保险公司做得更好。他们只是刮走了150亿美元。那就是白送，部分（出现这种情况）的原因是因为政客可以指定医疗保险如何实施。他们（政客）这样对政府补助的药品清单议案做了，他们已经这样修改了医疗保障系统。而我们将得改变那种风气。

（注：They did it on the Medicaid prescription drug bill. 指某些代表药品公司利益的政客为了替药品公司争取利益，将一些药品公司的药物列为了自费药物。）

Tom -- or John mentioned me being wildly liberal. Mostly that's just me opposing George Bush's wrong headed policies since I've been in Congress but I think it is that it is also important to recognize I worked with Tom Coburn, the most conservative, one of the most conservative Republicans who John already mentioned to set up what we call a Google for government saying we'll list every dollar of federal spending to make sure that the taxpayer can take a look and see who, in fact, is promoting some of these spending projects that John's been railing about.

汤姆……呃，约翰（麦凯恩）提到过我是胡乱地慷慨。但大多数时候那只是因为自从我进入国会后，我反对乔治. 布什错误方向的政策。我认为重要的是要记得我曾经和汤姆.科本一起工作。他是最保守、约翰（麦凯恩）已经提到过的最保守的共和党人之一。我们一起建立一个系统，叫做政府Google。（这个系统的）构思是我们将列出联邦政府所花出的每一分钱，以确保纳税人可以看看谁，事实上正在倡议那些约翰（麦凯恩）一直在责骂的花销项目。

LEHRER: What I'm trying to get at this is this. Excuse me if I may, senator. Trying to get at that you all -- one of you is going to be the president of the United States come January. At the -- in the middle of a huge financial crisis that is yet to be resolved. And what I'm trying to get at is how this is going to affect you not in very specific -- small ways but in major ways and the approach to take as to the presidency.

主持人：我一直想要在这个（话题）上知道的是这个。（麦凯恩插话）（主持人再次插话）对不起，议员。我想要知道你们都……呃，你们中的其中一个将在来年一月份成为美国总统。在这个……在一场巨大的尚未解决的金融危机中。我想要知道的是这个（金融危机）会怎样影响你们……不是在一些具体的方法，一些小的方法上，而是在你们在总统任期内要采用的主要的方式和方法。

MCCAIN: How about a spending freeze on everything but defense, veteran affairs and entitlement programs.

麦凯恩：（你们觉得）冻结所有的开销，除了国防，退伍军人事务和社会福利程序怎么样？

LEHRER: Spending freeze?

主持人：冻结开销？

MCCAIN: I think we ought to seriously consider with the exceptions the caring of veterans, national defense and several other vital issues.

麦凯恩：我认为我们应该认真考虑一下（冻结开销），除了照顾退伍军人、国防和其他一些最重要的事情例外。

LEHRER: Would you go for that?

主持人：（对奥巴马说）你会拥护那个（开销的冻结）吗？

OBAMA: The problem with a spending freeze is you're using a hatchet where you need a scalpel. There are some programs that are very important that are under funded. I went to increase early childhood education and the notion that we should freeze that when there may be, for example, this Medicare subsidy I think doesn't make sense.

奥巴马：冻结大多数开销的问题是你在用斧头（处理问题），而你（真正）需要的是一把（精巧的）手术刀。（注：完了，麦凯恩又一次被奥巴马抓住了把柄。这句 “冻结开销”真的是说得太过了。作为政客，最忌讳把话说死，留给对手的是无数的把柄。麦凯恩今天的状态真的太差了。）有一些非常重要的程序，现在投资不足。我准备增加早期幼儿教育（的投入），而（我们的）观念应该是我们冻结那些，例如，这个医保补助。我认为它没有意义。

Let me tell you another place to look for some savings. We are currently spending $10 billion a month in Iraq when they have a $79 billion surplus. It seems to me that if we're going to be strong at home as well as strong abroad, that we have to look at bringing that war to a close.

让我告诉你们另一个地方可以省钱的。我们当下每个月在伊拉克都花费100亿美，而他们（伊拉克）（注：到2008年年底）有着790亿美元的盈余。对我来说，如果我们想要在国内和国际都一样强大，那我们就得着眼于结束那场战争了。

MCCAIN: Look, we are sending $700 billion a year overseas to countries that don't like us very much. Some of that money ends up in the hands of terrorist organizations. We have to have wind, tide, solar, natural gas, flex fuel cars and all that but we also have to have offshore drilling and we also have to have nuclear power.

麦凯恩：听着，我们每年都在向海外一些不喜欢我们的国家送出7000亿美元。那些钱有些最后落到了恐怖组织的手里。我们必须得有风能、潮汐能、太阳能、天然气、混合燃料汽车还有所有那些。但我们也必须得有海底钻探，还有，我们得有核能。

Senator Obama opposes both storing and reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel. You can't get there from here and the fact is that we can create 700,000 jobs by building constructing 45 new nuclear power plants by the year 2030. Nuclear power is not only important as far as eliminating our dependence on foreign oil but it's also important (responsibility) as far as climate change is concerned and the issue that I have been involved in for many, many years and I'm proud of the work that I've done there along with President Clinton.

奥巴马议员反对废弃核燃料的存储和回收。（那样）你将不能从现在（的状况）到达（你所说的）那里。实际上是，我们可以通过在2030年前建设45家新的核能工厂创造70万个就业岗位。核能不仅仅重要在消除我们对外国石油的依赖上，还在于环境改变（温室效应）被考虑到上。我已经涉入这个问题（核能开发）许多许多年了。我为我和克林顿总统一起为之做出的成就感到骄傲。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Before we go to another lead question. Let me figure out a way to ask the same question in a slightly different way here. Are you -- are you willing to acknowledge both of you that this financial crisis is going to affect the way you rule the country as president of the United States beyond the kinds of things that you have already -- I mean, is it a major move? Is it going to have a major affect?

主持人：在我们进入下一个引导问题之前，请让我以另外一种稍微不同的方式来问同一个问题。你们……你们是否承认这次金融危机会影响到你们作为美国总统管理这个国家的方法，在那些你们已经提出的方法之外……我指的是，它（金融危机）会变换你们的主要路线吗？你们的政策会主要地到影响吗？

OBAMA: There's no doubt it will affect our budgets. There is no doubt about it. Not only -- Even if we get all $700 billion back, let's assume the markets recover, we' holding assets long enough that eventually taxpayers get it back and that happened during the Great Depression when Roosevelt purchased a whole bunch of homes, over time, home values went back up and in fact government made a profit. If we're lucky and do it right, that could potentially happen but in the short term there's an outlay and we may not see that money for a while.

奥巴马：毫不怀疑金融危机将影响我们的预算，毫不怀疑。不仅仅在……呃，即使我们赚回了那7000亿美元。我们假设市场恢复了，我们足够长时间拥有那些资产，最终纳税人收回了那些钱。那样的事情在大萧条(1929)时发生过，当时罗斯福购买了一大批住房，随着时间的过去，房价重新恢复（到了以前的价格），事实上，政府（在这个过程中）还赚了一笔。如果我们幸运地做好了这件政策的话，这件可能执行的政策（指救市）的话。但是短时间内，我们将付出一笔费用，而我们在一段时间内都看不到那笔钱。

And because of the economy's slowing down, I think we can also expect less tax revenue so there's no doubt that as president I'm go doing have to make some tough decision.

又因为经济正在放缓，我觉得我们也可以预见税收的减少，所以，毫不怀疑地，作为总统，我将不得不做出一些艰难的决定。

The only point I want to make is this, that in order to make the tough decisions we have to know what our values are and who we're fighting for and our priorities and if we are spending $300 billion on tax cuts for people who don't need them and weren't even asking for them, and we are leaving out health care which is crushing on people all across the country, then I think we have made a bad decision and I want to make sure we're not shortchanging our long term priorities.

我想指出的唯一点是这个：为了做出这些艰难的决定，我们得知道我们的（核心）价值在哪里，我们为谁战斗以及我们（做事）的优先级。如果我们把3000亿美元的减税给予了那些根本不需要减税的人们，那些甚至没有要求这个的人们，那我们就放弃了（解决）重压在这个国家的人民头上的医疗保障。如果是那样，我认为我们就做了一个错误的决定。我希望我们没有在长期的重要事务上省钱。

MCCAIN: Well, I want to make sure we're not handing the health care system over to the federal government which is basically what would ultimately happen with Senator Obama's health care plan. I want the families to make decisions between themselves and their doctors. Not the federal government. Look. We have to obviously cut spending. I have fought to cut spending. Senator Obama has $800 billion in new spending programs. I would suggest he start by canceling some of those new spending program that he has.

麦凯恩：呃，我不希望让我们的联邦政府管理整个医疗保障系统，而那将是麦凯恩议员的医疗保障计划的一部分。我希望让那些家庭在他们和医生间自己决定（医疗保障），而不是联邦政府。显然，我们必须得消减开支。我一直为消减开支而战斗。奥巴马议员提出了8000亿美元的新开支项目。我希望他能取消掉一些他提出的新开支项目。

We can't I think adjust spending around to take care of the very much needed programs, including taking care of our veterans but I also want to say again a healthy economy with low taxes would not raising anyone's taxes is probably the best recipe for eventually having our economy recover.

我们不能……我认为……不能调整那些真正需要的开支项目，例如退伍军人的照顾。但我想再说一次，一个健康的经济（环境），低税率……呃，不对任何人增加税收，也许是最终让我们的经济恢复的最好处方。

And spending restraint has got to be a vital part of that. And the reason, one of the major reasons why we're in the difficulties we are in today is because spending got out of control. We owe China $500 billion. And spending, I know, can be brought under control because I have fought against excessive spending my entire career. And I got plans to reduce and eliminate unnecessary and wasteful spending and if there's anybody here who thinks there aren't agencies of government where spending can be cut and their budgets slashed they have not spent a lot of time in Washington.

而开销控制将是一个重要的部分。其原因，一个造成我们今天这种困难的主要的原因，是因为不受控制的花销。我们欠中国5000亿美元。而花销，我知道，是可以被控制住的，因为在我的整个职业生涯中，我一直在与过度花销作斗争。我有减少和取消不必要和浪费的花销的计划。而如果有任何人认为没有一个政府部门的开销可以削减，预算可以削减的话，他一定没有在华盛顿长时间呆过。（注：这里映射奥巴马经验不足。）

OBAMA: I just want to make this point, Jim. John, it's been your president who you said you agreed with 90 percent of the time who presided over this increase in spending. This orgy of spending and enormous deficits you voted for almost all of his budgets. So to stand here and after eight years and say that you're going to lead on controlling spending and, you know, balancing our tax cuts so that they help middle class families when over the last eight years that hasn't happened I think just is, you know, kind of hard to swallow.

奥巴马：我只是想指出这点，吉姆……呃，约翰（麦凯恩），百分之90的时候都是你那位你支持的总统（注：指布什）在主持花销的增加。你投票支持了几乎所有他那些放纵的花销和巨大的赤字预算。而八年后，你站在这里，说你要主导花销的控制。还有那个，你知道的，在过去的八年时间你从没有要平衡我们的减税（注：指麦凯恩为富人减税太多，却忽略了平民）以便帮助中产阶级家庭。我认为这（行为）是，你知道，某种自食其言。

LEHRER: Quick response to Senator Obama.

主持人：（对麦凯恩）快速回答奥巴马议员。

MCCAIN: It's well-known that I have not been elected Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate nor with the administration. I have opposed the president on spending, on climate change, on torture of prisoner, on - on Guantanamo Bay. On a -- on the way that the Iraq War was conducted. I have a long record and the American people know me very well and that is independent and a maverick of the Senate and I'm happy to say that I've got a partner that's a good maverick along with me now.

麦凯恩：众所周知我在美国议员和行政部门都不是好好先生。我曾经反对过（布什）总统的花销——在气候变化上，在虐囚上，在关塔那摩湾上，在——在伊拉克战争的执行方式上，我有很多这样的记录。美国人民也许对我在议会的独立和不结党的做法了解的很清楚。我很高兴地说现在我有一位很好的独立合作者了。




金融危机部分终于告一个段落了，接下来将是关于伊拉克战争的讨论。

punkxxx

LEHRER: All right. Let's go another subject. Lead question, two minutes to you, senator McCain. Much has been said about the lessons of Vietnam. What do you see as the lessons of Iraq?

主持人：好了，让我们开始另一个话题。引导问题，给你两分钟时间，麦凯恩议员。我们听说过很多关于越战的教训。你认为伊拉克（战争）的教训是什么？

MCCAIN: I think the lessons of Iraq are very clear that you cannot have a failed strategy that will then cause you to nearly lose a conflict. Our initial military success, we went in to Baghdad and everybody celebrated. And then the war was very badly mishandled. I went to Iraq in 2003 and came back and said, we've got to change this strategy. This strategy requires additional troops, it requires a fundamental change in strategy and I fought for it. And finally, we came up with a great general and a strategy that has succeeded.

麦凯恩：我认为伊拉克（战争）的教训很清楚，你不能做出错误的决策，（否则）它就会让你在斗争中失败。我们最初的军事胜利，我们进入了巴格达，每个人都为之庆祝。而之后的作战就被胡乱操作了。2003 年我去过一趟伊拉克，回来后我说道，我们得改变策略了。我们的新策略需要更多的部队，它意味着对旧策略的彻底改变，我为（这个新策略）而奋斗。最终，我们有了一位杰出的将军和最终获得了成功的策略。

This strategy has succeeded. And we are winning in Iraq. And we will come home with victory and with honor. And that withdrawal is the result of every counterinsurgency that succeeds.

这个策略成功了。我们在伊拉克即将胜利。而我们将带着胜利和荣誉回家。而我们的回家将是每一次成功镇压叛乱的结果。

MCCAIN: And I want to tell you that now that we will succeed and our troops will come home, and not in defeat, that we will see a stable ally in the region and a fledgling democracy.

麦凯恩：我想告诉你们的是，我们我们的队伍将带着胜利回家，而不是失败。我们将在那个地区（伊拉克）看到一个稳固的盟友和新的民主国家。

The consequences of defeat would have been increased Iranian influence. It would have been increase in sectarian violence. It would have been a wider war, which the United States of America might have had to come back.

而（在伊拉克）失败的后果是：伊朗的影响力将增大，宗派间的暴力冲突将更多，更大范围的战争将被触发，而美利坚合众国将不得不再回到战争。

So there was a lot at stake there. And thanks to this great general, David Petraeus, and the troops who serve under him, they have succeeded. And we are winning in Iraq, and we will come home. And we will come home as we have when we have won other wars and not in defeat.

所以那里有着我们相当多的利益。而多亏这位杰出的将军，大卫.佩崔斯，还有他手下的部队，他们获得了成功。我们将在伊拉克胜利并回家。而我们将像经历过其他那些战斗（注：指以前的胜利的战争）一样回家，而不是失败。

LEHRER: Two minutes, how you see the lessons of Iraq, Senator Obama.

主持人：两分钟，你如何看待伊拉克战争的教训，奥巴马议员？

OBAMA: Well, this is an area where Senator McCain and I have a fundamental difference because I think the first question is whether we should have gone into the war in the first place.

奥巴马：嗯，这是一个麦凯恩议员和我有着本质上区别的地方。因为我认为首要的问题是在最开始的时候我们应该开始战争吗？

Now six years ago, I stood up and opposed this war at a time when it was politically risky to do so because I said that not only did we not know how much it was going to cost, what our exit strategy might be, how it would affect our relationships around the world, and whether our intelligence was sound, but also because we hadn't finished the job in Afghanistan.

六年前，我站起来反对这场战争，当时这样做有着（巨大的）政治风险。我（当时）说不仅仅是因为我们不知道它（伊拉克战争）要花多少钱，不知道我们的撤退方针，不知道它会怎样影响我们和世界的关系，不知道我们的情报是否可靠，但更因为我们当时还没有完成在阿富汗的工作。

We hadn't caught bin Laden. We hadn't put al Qaeda to rest, and as a consequence, I thought that it was going to be a distraction. Now Senator McCain and President Bush had a very different judgment.

我们没有抓到本拉登。我们没有让基地组织（阿尔-凯达）停下来休息，而正因为此，我当时认为它（伊拉克战争）将转移我们的注意力。而当时麦凯恩议员和布什总统做出了完全不同的判断。

And I wish I had been wrong for the sake of the country and they had been right, but that's not the case. We've spent over $600 billion so far, soon to be $1 trillion. We have lost over 4,000 lives. We have seen 30,000 wounded, and most importantly, from a strategic national security perspective, al Qaeda is resurgent, stronger now than at any time since 2001.

而为了这个国家的利益，我希望我是错的，他们是对的，但事实情况却不是这样。我们已经花掉了6000多亿美元，很快就要1万亿美元了。我们失去了4000 多位（战士的）生命，我们看到了3万的伤员。而从一个民族的安全角度来说最重要的是，基地组织复活了，比从2001年来的任何时候都还要强大。

We took our eye off the ball. And not to mention that we are still spending $10 billion a month, when they have a $79 billion surplus, at a time when we are in great distress here at home, and we just talked about the fact that our budget is way overstretched and we are borrowing money from overseas to try to finance just some of the basic functions of our government.

我们把我们的注意力从（应该注意的地方）挪开了。更别说在现在我们在家遭到了一次大危难的时候，我们现在每个月还要花100亿美元（在伊拉克），而他们（伊拉克政府）有着790亿美元的盈余。我们刚才谈到我们的预算铺得太开的这个事实，我们现在为了维持我们政府运作的一些基本功能还要从海外（国家）借钱。

So I think the lesson to be drawn is that we should never hesitate to use military force, and I will not, as president, in order to keep the American people safe. But we have to use our military wisely. And we did not use our military wisely in Iraq.

所以我认为（伊拉克战争）引出的教训是我们绝不应该犹豫使用武力，如果我是美国总统，为了保护美国人民的安全，我也不会（犹豫）。但是我们必须明智地使用我们的武力。而我们没有在伊拉克明智地使用我们的武力。

LEHRER: Do you agree with that, the lesson of Iraq?

主持人：（对麦凯恩）你同意那个吗，伊拉克战争的教训？

MCCAIN: The next president of the United States is not going to have to address the issue as to whether we went into Iraq or not. The next president of the United States is going to have to decide how we leave, when we leave, and what we leave behind. That's the decision of the next president of the United States.

麦凯恩：下一届美国总统不是解决我们应不应该去伊拉克的问题。下一届的美国总统应该决定我们如何离开（伊拉克），而当我们离开时，我们留下了什么。那（才）是下一届美国总统应该决定的事。

Senator Obama said the surge could not work, said it would increase sectarian violence, said it was doomed to failure. Recently on a television program, he said it exceed our wildest expectations.

奥巴马议员说过(2007年的）增派部队不会起作用，说过那会增加教派间的暴力冲突，说过那注定要失败。在最近的一次电视节目上，他还说那（增兵伊拉克）超出了最疯狂的预期。

（注： Surge，这里指的是2007年布什总统计划向伊拉克增加部队，以维护巴格达和安巴尔省的稳定。安巴尔是伊拉克西部的一个省，首都是拉马迪。安巴尔是伊拉克境内最大的省份，与叙利亚、约旦和沙特阿拉伯接壤。在伊拉克战争之后，伊拉克的叛乱在安巴尔省内最为激烈，人民对占领军的敌对状态也特别强烈，所以直到今天，美国的武装部队仍然在为取得该地区的控制而费尽心思。安巴尔省内，特别是拉马迪和费卢杰两个城市，以其居民强烈的部落和宗教情节而闻名，甚至前总统萨达姆·侯塞因的政权都对该地区动荡的天性而保持高度的机警。）

But yet, after conceding that, he still says that he would oppose the surge if he had to decide that again today. Incredibly, incredibly Senator Obama didn't go to Iraq for 900 days and never asked for a meeting with General Petraeus.

而在他不情愿地让步后，他还在说如果今天再给他一次机会让他做决定，他将反对增兵。神奇的是，神奇的是奥巴马议员900天来（根本）没有去过伊拉克而且从没有要求过一次和佩崔斯将军的会面。

LEHRER: Well, let's go at some of these things...

主持人：好的，让我们讨论一下这些事情……

MCCAIN: Senator Obama is the chairperson of a committee that oversights NATO that's in Afghanistan. To this day, he has never had a hearing.

麦凯恩：（打断）奥巴马议员是一个监管北约在阿富汗的委员会的主席。直到今天，他还从没有举行过一次会议。

（注：这一次轮到奥巴马的尾巴被麦凯恩抓住了。正如刚才大家看到，奥巴马强烈抨击本拉登在逃，基地组织复活等，不料麦凯恩抖出奥巴马在阿富汗本有职务的这个事实。这样一来，奥巴马所攻击的阿富汗局面反而看起来是在攻击自己没做好工作了。而麦凯恩如果成为总统，他本来就要取消掉那些没有做好工作的政府部门和官员。）

LEHRER: What about that point?

主持人：（对奥巴马）对这一点你怎么说？

MCCAIN: I mean, it's remarkable.

麦凯恩：（打断）我指的是，这真是印象深刻啊。

LEHRER: All right. What about that point?

主持人：（打断）好了好了。（对奥巴马）对这一点你怎么说？

punkxxx

OBAMA: Which point? He raised a whole bunch of them.

奥巴马：哪一点？他抛出了一大批观点。

LEHRER: I know, OK, let's go to the latter point and we'll back up. The point about your not having been...

主持人：我知道，这样，让我们先谈（约翰.麦凯恩）的第二点然后我们再回来。是关于你一直没有…… （注：一直没有举行奥巴马负责的阿富汗的一个委员会的会议）

OBAMA: Look, I'm very proud of my vice presidential selection, Joe Biden, who is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and as he explains, and as John well knows, the issues of Afghanistan, the issues of Iraq, critical issues like that, don't go through my subcommittee because they're done as a committee as a whole.

奥巴马：听着，我一直为我的副总统候选人乔.拜登而骄傲。他是参议院外交委员会的主席，正如他所解释的，约翰你也知道，阿富汗的问题和伊拉克的问题以及类似的重要问题，并不通过我的小组委员会来解决，因为那些问题已经由委员会作为一个整体来解决了。

But that's Senate inside baseball. But let's get back to the core issue here. Senator McCain is absolutely right that the violence has been reduced as a consequence of the extraordinary sacrifice of our troops and our military families.

但那（注：指阿富汗和委员会的问题）是在转移话题（伊拉克战争）。让我们回到这里的核心问题。（伊拉克的）暴力事件减少了，麦凯恩议员在这点上完全正确，（但）那是我们的部队和我们军人的家庭做出了相当的牺牲的结果。

They have done a brilliant job, and General Petraeus has done a brilliant job. But understand, that was a tactic designed to contain the damage of the previous four years of mismanagement of this war.

他们，还有佩崔斯将军，做出了一项辉煌的成就。但要知道，那只是一项抑制（更多）破坏的战术，之前四年来的破坏，源自作战的管理不善。

And so John likes -- John, you like to pretend like the war started in 2007. You talk about the surge. The war started in 2003, and at the time when the war started, you said it was going to be quick and easy. You said we knew where the weapons of mass destruction were. You were wrong.

而约翰（麦凯恩）想要……约翰，你想让这战争看起来像是2007年开始的。你谈论增派部队。（但是）战争是2003年开始的，而在战争开始的时候，你说它（伊拉克战争）会很快很简单（地结束）。你说我们知道哪里有大杀伤性武器。（然而）你错了。

You said that we were going to be greeted as liberators. You were wrong. You said that there was no history of violence between Shia and Sunni. And you were wrong. And so my question is...

你说我们会像解放军一样受到欢迎。你错了。你说什叶派和逊尼派之间没有暴力冲突的历史，你又错了。所以，问题是……

(CROSSTALK)
（插话）

LEHRER: Senator Obama...

主持人：奥巴马议员……

OBAMA: ... of judgment, of whether or not -- of whether or not -- if the question is who is best-equipped as the next president to make good decisions about how we use our military, how we make sure that we are prepared and ready for the next conflict, then I think we can take a look at our judgment.

奥巴马：……问题是判断力，关于是否……是否……（主持人中间多次插话，奥巴马不予理会，继续说了下去）呃，如果要问作为下一任总统，谁整装待发，谁能对武力的使用做出更好的决策，如何确保我们为下一次冲突做好了准备，那么我认为我们要看看我们的判断力。

LEHRER: I have got a lot on the plate here...

主持人：我已经有很多需要（你们）讨论的……

（注：on (one's) plate 需要完成工作或任务）

MCCAIN: I'm afraid Senator Obama doesn't understand the difference between a tactic and a strategy. But the important -- I'd like to tell you, two Fourths of July ago I was in Baghdad. General Petraeus invited Senator Lindsey Graham and me to attend a ceremony where 688 brave young Americans, whose enlistment had expired, were reenlisting to stay and fight for Iraqi freedom and American freedom.

麦凯恩：我恐怕奥巴马议员不清楚一个（局部）战术和一个（全局性）战略的区别。但重要的是……我想告诉你，两年前我在巴格达，佩崔斯将军邀请林德西.格雷厄姆议员和我去参加一个仪式。在那个仪式上，688位勇敢的美国年轻人，他们服役期已经满了，（但）他们延长了服役期并留下来为伊拉克人和美国人的自由而战斗。

（注：Fourths of July，美国独立纪念日，七月四日。）

I was honored to be there. I was honored to speak to those troops. And you know, afterwards, we spent a lot of time with them. And you know what they said to us? They said, let us win. They said, let us win. We don't want our kids coming back here.

我很荣幸地当时在那里。我很荣幸能向那些部队讲话。正如你所知道的，之后，我们和他们（部队）在一起呆了很长时间。你知道他们对我们说什么吗？他们说：“让我们去争取胜利”。他们说：“让我们去争取胜利”。我们不希望我们的孩子（就这样）回来。

And this strategy, and this general, they are winning. Senator Obama refuses to acknowledge that we are winning in Iraq.

而这个战略（注：指留在伊拉克及增派部队），还有将军，他们即将取得胜利。奥巴马议员拒绝承认我们现在在伊拉克即将取得胜利。

OBAMA: That's not true.

奥巴马：那不是真的。

MCCAIN: They just passed an electoral...

麦凯恩：他们刚通过了一项选举……

OBAMA: That's not true.

奥巴马：那不是真的。

MCCAIN: An election law just in the last few days. There is social, economic progress, and a strategy, a strategy of going into an area, clearing and holding, and the people of the country then become allied with you. They inform on the bad guys. And peace comes to the country, and prosperity.

麦凯恩：就在最近几天通过了一项选举法。那里在社会和经济上都有进步，还有（我们的）一项战略，就是进入一个地区，清除（敌人）并占领它，而（之后）那个国家的人们将成为我们的盟友。他们（伊拉克人）向我们揭发坏蛋。而和平和繁荣将降临这个国家。

（注： inform on sbd: to inform on is to give incriminating information to the authorities about someone: Only two people knew, and it must have been you that told the police - Benny would never inform on his brother.）

That's what's happening in Iraq, and it wasn't a tactic.

那就是伊拉克正在发生的。而那可不是一个（局部的）战术。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Let me see...

主持人：让我说……

OBAMA: Jim, Jim, this is a big...

奥巴马：吉姆，吉姆，这是一个巨大的……

MCCAIN: It was a stratagem. And that same strategy will be employed in Afghanistan by this great general. And Senator Obama, who after promising not to vote to cut off funds for the troops, did the incredible thing of voting to cut off the funds for the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

麦凯恩：这是一个战略。同样的战略将被这位杰出的将军用在阿富汗上面。而奥巴马议员，在承诺不会投票反对削减部队拨款后，做了一件让人难以置信的事情，他投票支持削减在伊拉克和阿富汗部队的拨款。

OBAMA: Jim, there are a whole bunch of things we have got to answer. First of all, let's talk about this troop funding issue because John always brings this up. Senator McCain cut -- Senator McCain opposed funding for troops in legislation that had a timetable, because he didn't believe in a timetable.

奥巴马：吉姆，我得回答一整大批东西。首先，让我们谈谈部队拨款的问题，因为约翰（麦凯恩）总是把它提出来。麦凯恩议员削减……麦凯恩议员在有时间表时反对给部队的拨款立法，因为他不相信有一个时间表。（注：这一点上，2004年的总统辩论上，布什的观点和麦凯恩也是一样的。）

I opposed funding a mission that had no timetable, and was open-ended, giving a blank check to George Bush. We had a difference on the timetable. We didn't have a difference on whether or not we were going to be funding troops.

我反对对一个没有时间表的任务拨款，而且是开放式的（任务），这给了乔治.布什自由处理权。我们（只是）在时间表上有分歧。我们并没有在是否对部队拨款上面有分歧。

We had a legitimate difference, and I absolutely understand the difference between tactics and strategy. And the strategic question that the president has to ask is not whether or not we are employing a particular approach in the country once we have made the decision to be there. The question is, was this wise?

我们有一个真正的分歧，而我完全理解战术和战略的区别。而一旦做了决定（进攻）伊拉克，总统要问的战略性问题不是我们该不该在伊拉克执行一个特殊的任务。问题是，那（进攻）明智吗？

We have seen Afghanistan worsen, deteriorate. We need more troops there. We need more resources there. Senator McCain, in the rush to go into Iraq, said, you know what? We've been successful in Afghanistan. There is nobody who can pose a threat to us there.

我们已经看到阿富汗（的局势）变糟，恶化。那里需要更多部队，需要更多资源。麦凯恩议员在（支持）袭击伊拉克时说，你们知道（他说）什么吗？“我们在阿富汗已经胜利了，那里没人能威胁到我们了。”

This is a time when bin Laden was still out, and now they've reconstituted themselves. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates himself acknowledges the war on terrorism started in Afghanistan and it needs to end there.

那是本拉登还在逍遥法外的时候，而现在他们已经重组了。国防部长罗伯特.盖茨他自己也承认反恐战争在阿富汗开始（打响），而我们需要在那里结束它。

punkxxx

But we can't do it if we are not willing to give Iraq back its country. Now, what I've said is we should end this war responsibly. We should do it in phases. But in 16 months we should be able to reduce our combat troops, put -- provide some relief to military families and our troops and bolster our efforts in Afghanistan so that we can capture and kill bin Laden and crush al Qaeda.

奥巴马：但我们还不能做那个（结束阿富汗战争），如果我们不愿把伊拉克还给他们自己的国家的话。现在，我刚才所说的就是我们应该负责任地结束这场战争了。我们应该有阶段性计划。在16个月的时间里我们应该能减少我们的作战部队，给军人家庭和我们的部队一些调剂。支援我们在阿富汗的努力，这样我们能抓住本拉登并毙掉他，并摧毁基地组织。

And right now, the commanders in Afghanistan, as well as Admiral Mullen, have acknowledged that we don't have enough troops to deal with Afghanistan because we still have more troops in Iraq than we did before the surge.

而现在，阿富汗驻军司令，还有海军上将麦克.马伦，都说我们没有足够的队伍来处理阿富汗（的任务），因为我们现在在伊拉克的部队仍然比（2007年）增兵时多。

MCCAIN: Admiral Mullen suggests that Senator Obama's plan is dangerous for America.

麦凯恩：马伦上将认为奥巴马议员的计划对美国很危险。

OBAMA: That's not the case.

奥巴马：那是另一个话题。

MCCAIN: That's what ...

麦凯恩：那就是……

OBAMA: What he said was a precipitous...

奥巴马：他所说的是一个仓促的……

MCCAIN: That's what Admiral Mullen said.

麦凯恩：那就是马伦上将所说的。

OBAMA: ... withdrawal would be dangerous. He did not say that. That's not true.

奥巴马：……撤退是危险的（决策）。他没有说过那个。那不是真的。

MCCAIN: And also General Petraeus said the same thing. Osama bin Laden and General Petraeus have one thing in common that I know of, they both said that Iraq is the central battleground.

麦凯恩：还有彼得雷乌斯将军也说了同样的话。我知道奥萨玛.本.拉登和彼得雷乌斯将军有一个共同点，他们都说伊拉克是战斗中心。

Now General Petraeus has praised the successes, but he said those successes are fragile and if we set a specific date for withdrawal -- and by the way, Senator Obama's original plan, they would have been out last spring before the surge ever had a chance to succeed.

现在彼得雷乌斯将军高度评价了（在伊拉克的）成就。但他也说这些成就非常脆肉，而如果我们为撤退设定了一个确定的日期——顺便说一句，这就是奥巴马议员最初的计划，那么去年春天，驻伊部队就已经得退场了，而（2007年的）增兵将没有机会实施并成功。

And I'm -- I'm -- understand why Senator Obama was surprised and said that the surge succeeded beyond his wildest expectations.

而我……我……理解为什么奥巴马议员会感到惊讶，还有他说增兵的成功超出了他最疯狂的期望。

MCCAIN: It didn't exceed beyond mine, because I know that that's a strategy that has worked and can succeed. But if we snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and adopt Senator Obama's plan, then we will have a wider war and it will make things more complicated throughout the region, including in Afghanistan.

麦凯恩：而那并不让我意外，因为我知道那起过作用的战略能够成功。但如果我们采用了奥巴马议员的建议，在到达胜利的大门口被击败，那我们将面临更广阔范围的战争，那会让那个（中东）地区的局势更加复杂化，包括在阿富汗（的局势）。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Afghanistan, lead -- a new -- a new lead question. Now, having resolved Iraq, we'll move to Afghanistan.

主持人：阿富汗，引导……新的……新的引导问题。现在，在解决了伊拉克（的问题）后，我们将前往阿富汗。

(LAUGHTER)
（笑声）

And it goes to you, Senator Obama, and it's a -- it picks up on a point that's already been made. Do you think more troops -- more U.S. troops should be sent to Afghanistan, how many, and when?

而这个问题轮到你了，奥巴马议员。它是一个……它深入讨论我们刚才谈到的一点。你认为更多的部队——更多的美国部队应该被派往阿富汗吗？多少？什么时候？

OBAMA: Yes, I think we need more troops. I've been saying that for over a year now.

奥巴马：是的，我认为我们需要更多部队。我谈这个已经一整年了。

And I think that we have to do it as quickly as possible, because it's been acknowledged by the commanders on the ground the situation is getting worse, not better.

我认为我们还得尽快做这件事情，因为战场上的指挥官们承认局势正在恶化，而不是变好。

We had the highest fatalities among U.S. troops this past year than at any time since 2002. And we are seeing a major offensive taking place -- Al Qaida and Taliban crossing the border and attacking our troops in a brazen fashion. They are feeling emboldened.

过去这一年比从2002年来的任何时候美军的伤亡都要高。我们看到主要的进攻正在发生——基地组织还有塔利班横越国界，以无耻的招数攻击我们的部队。他们的胆子大起来了。

And we cannot separate Afghanistan from Iraq, because what our commanders have said is we don't have the troops right now to deal with Afghanistan.

而我们不能将阿富汗（的问题）和伊拉克（的问题）分离开来，因为我们的指挥官说过了我们现在在阿富汗没有足够的部队。

So I would send two to three additional brigades to Afghanistan. Now, keep in mind that we have four times the number of troops in Iraq, where nobody had anything to do with 9/11 before we went in, where, in fact, there was no Al Qaida before we went in, but we have four times more troops there than we do in Afghanistan.

所以如果是我，我会派遣额外三个旅去阿富汗。现在，（我想让你们）记住我们现在在伊拉克有着四倍（于阿富汗）的部队，而在我们去那里（伊拉克）之前，那里没有人和911有关。实际上，那里在我们去之前是没有基地组织的，而我们却在那里布置了四倍于阿富汗的部队。

（注：美国人将部队大批派往伊拉克是有原因的。除了控制中东石油外，美国人还寄希望在那里开辟战场，吸引全球所有的恐怖分子，从而在那里将中东的反美武装一网打尽。这一招其实就是围魏救赵。这样可以避免在美国本土作战。这也是为何麦凯恩说，奥巴马还没有理解这个战略，而如果从伊拉克撤兵，战场必然会扩大化。当然，奥巴马其实是理解这个战略的，但是他战略是各个击破，先消灭阿富汗的反美武装，然后再考虑其他地区。）

And that is a strategic mistake, because every intelligence agency will acknowledge that Al Qaida is the greatest threat against the United States and that Secretary of Defense Gates acknowledged the central front -- that the place where we have to deal with these folks is going to be in Afghanistan and in Pakistan.

而那是一个战略性的错误，因为每个情报机构都承认基地组织是对美国最大的威胁，国防部长盖茨也承认前线的中心——我们必须得在那里解决基地组织——是阿富汗和巴基斯坦。

So here's what we have to do comprehensively, though. It's not just more troops. We have to press the Afghan government to make certain that they are actually working for their people. And I've said this to President Karzai.

所以这是我们必须得彻底做的事情，不仅仅是要更多的部队。我们得对阿富汗政府施压，确保他们正在为他们的人民而工作。这个我已经对卡尔扎伊总统说过了。

Number two, we've got to deal with a growing poppy trade that has exploded over the last several years.

第二，我们必须得处理（阿富汗）在过去数年间暴涨的鸦片交易。

（注：阿富汗70%的经济来源都靠种植鸦片，而鸦片对于我们中国人来说，更有不同寻常的历史。在糜烂的清朝，多少人自甘堕落，抽吸大烟。看看历史上的照片，那个时期的中国人，一个个皮包骨头，面黄肌瘦。难怪那时我们被人称为东亚病夫。）

Number three, we've got to deal with Pakistan, because Al Qaida and the Taliban have safe havens in Pakistan, across the border in the northwest regions, and although, you know, under George Bush, with the support of Senator McCain, we've been giving them $10 billion over the last seven years, they have not done what needs to be done to get rid of those safe havens.

第三、我们必须处理巴基斯坦了，因为基地组织和塔利班在巴基斯坦有着安全的避难所，就在越过（阿富汗）边境在巴基斯坦的西北区域。尽管，你也知道，在乔治.布什以及支持他的麦凯恩议员的政策下，在过去七年我们总共给了他们100亿美元。他们没有做那些我们需要他们做的事情，即端掉那些避难所。

And until we do, Americans here at home are not going to be safe.

而除非我们这样做，否则美国，就在我们的家这里，将不会安全。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Afghanistan, Senator McCain?

主持人：（关于）阿富汗，麦凯恩议员。

MCCAIN: First of all, I won't repeat the mistake that I regret enormously, and that is, after we were able to help the Afghan freedom fighters and drive the Russians out of Afghanistan, we basically washed our hands of the region.

麦凯恩：首先，我不会重复那个我非常后悔的错误，即：在我们有能力帮助阿富汗为自由而战的战士们和把俄罗斯人驱逐出阿富汗后，我们却在那个地区洗手不干了。

And the result over time was the Taliban, Al Qaida, and a lot of the difficulties we are facing today. So we can't ignore those lessons of history.

而随着时间的推移，这后果就是我们今天面临的塔利班、基地组织还有许许多多的问题。所以我们不能忽略这些历史上的教训。

Now, on this issue of aiding Pakistan, if you're going to aim a gun at somebody, George Shultz, our great secretary of state, told me once, you'd better be prepared to pull the trigger.

现在，在援助巴基斯坦的问题上。我们的杰出的国务卿乔治.舒尔茨（任期1982年7月到1989年1月）一次曾经告诉过我，如果你要拿着枪对准某人，那你最好准备好按下扳机。

I'm not prepared at this time to cut off aid to Pakistan. So I'm not prepared to threaten it, as Senator Obama apparently wants to do, as he has said that he would announce military strikes into Pakistan.

我现在这个时候还没有准备好砍掉对巴基斯坦的援助。因此我还没有准备好去威胁他，而奥巴马议员显然想这么做，正如他说过他会对巴基斯坦进行军事打击。

We've got to get the support of the people of -- of Pakistan. He said that he would launch military strikes into Pakistan.

我们还需要巴基斯坦人民的支持。而他却说他要对巴基斯坦进行军事打击。

Now, you don't do that. You don't say that out loud. If you have to do things, you have to do things, and you work with the Pakistani government.

你没有必要这么做，你不需要大声的把它说出来。如果你真得做点什么，你就做点什么，并和巴基斯坦政府合作。

Now, the new president of Pakistan, Kardari (sic), has got his hands full. And this area on the border has not been governed since the days of Alexander the Great.

现在，巴基斯坦的新任总统，卡尔达里，已经忙得不可开交了。而在巴基斯坦边境的这个地区自从亚历山大大帝（公元前336年）开始起就无人管理。

I've been to Waziristan. I can see how tough that terrain is. It's ruled by a handful of tribes.

我去过一回瓦齐里斯坦。那里的地形非常苛刻。它被一些部落占据着。

（注：瓦齐里斯坦，巴基斯坦西北部山区，靠阿富汗边界，被分成北瓦齐里斯坦和南瓦齐里斯坦 。此地区于1947年成为巴基斯坦一部分。）

And, yes, Senator Obama calls for more troops, but what he doesn't understand, it's got to be a new strategy, the same strategy that he condemned in Iraq. It's going to have to be employed in Afghanistan.

是的，奥巴马议员呼吁更多的部队，但他所不理解的，是（在阿富汗）应该是一个新的战略，即饱受他责难的我们在伊拉克的战略。那应该用于阿富汗。

And we're going to have to help the Pakistanis go into these areas and obtain the allegiance of the people. And it's going to be tough. They've intermarried with Al Qaida and the Taliban. And it's going to be tough. But we have to get the cooperation of the people in those areas.

而我们得帮助巴基斯坦人进入这些地区（边境区域）并得到那些人的效忠。而那将是一项艰巨的任务。（边境）那些人已经和基地组织还有塔利班通婚。那将非常艰巨，但我们必须得到那些区域的人民的合作。

And the Pakistanis are going to have to understand that that bombing in the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad was a signal from the terrorists that they don't want that government to cooperate with us in combating the Taliban and jihadist elements.

而巴基斯坦人将明白，在伊斯兰堡的万豪大酒店的爆炸是一个信号，它意味着恐怖分子不想让政府和我们合作对抗塔利班和讨伐（恐怖分子）。

So we've got a lot of work to do in Afghanistan. But I'm confident, now that General Petraeus is in the new position of command, that we will employ a strategy which not only means additional troops -- and, by the way, there have been 20,000 additional troops, from 32,000 to 53,000, and there needs to be more.

所以在阿富汗我们有很多事情要做。但我相信，现在彼得雷乌斯将军就任了司令部的新的职位，我们将执行一项不仅仅意味着增加额外部队的战略——顺便说一句，那里已经增派了2万多部队，从3万2千到5万3千，而那里需要更多部队。

So it's not just the addition of troops that matters. It's a strategy that will succeed. And Pakistan is a very important element in this. And I know how to work with him. And I guarantee you I would not publicly state that I'm going to attack them.

所以那不仅仅是增派额外部队的事情。那是一项必将成功的战略。在这个战略中，巴基斯坦将是一个重要的因素。我知道怎么和他们一起合作。我向你们保证，我不会（像奥巴马议员那样）公开声明我要进攻他们。

punkxxx

OBAMA: Nobody talked about attacking Pakistan. Here's what I said. And if John wants to disagree with this, he can let me know.

奥巴马：没人说要进攻巴基斯坦。我是这样说的，如果约翰（麦凯恩）不同意，他可以说出来。

that, if the United States has Al Qaida, bin Laden, top-level lieutenants in our sights, and Pakistan is unable or unwilling to act, then we should take them out.

那就是，如果美国在视野内发现了基地组织、本拉登或者基地组织的头子，而巴基斯坦不能或者不愿行动，那我们就要把他们（基地组织）端掉。

（注：奥巴马要发飙了，他不管巴基斯坦愿意不愿意，就要冲到巴基斯坦的国境内杀人。这就是他的战略。）

Now, I think that's the right strategy; I think that's the right policy.

我认为那是正确的战略；我认为那是正确的政策。

And, John, I -- you're absolutely right that presidents have to be prudent in what they say. But, you know, coming from you, who, you know, in the past has threatened extinction for North Korea and, you know, sung songs about bombing Iran, I don't know, you know, how credible that is.
而，约翰，我……关于总统要谨慎发言这一点上你完全正确。但是，你知道，你的发言，你知道的，过去你威胁说要灭绝朝鲜，还有，你知道，叫嚣着要轰炸伊朗，你知道那是多么的难以置信。

I think this is the right strategy. Now, Senator McCain is also right that it's difficult. This is not an easy situation. You've got cross-border attacks against U.S. troops.

我认为这是正确的战略。这很难办到，麦凯恩议员现在在这点上也是正确的。这不是一个简单的情况，（因为）你需要穿越国界去攻击反美武装。

And we've got a choice. We could allow our troops to just be on the defensive and absorb those blows again and again and again, if Pakistan is unwilling to cooperate, or we have to start making some decisions.

而我们面临一个选择：一是如果巴基斯坦不愿意合作，我们就让我们的部队仅仅防守，不断不断不断地承受那些突然袭击；二是我们开始下一些决定。

And the problem, John, with the strategy that's been pursued was that, for 10 years, we coddled Musharraf, we alienated the Pakistani population, because we were anti-democratic. We had a 20th-century mindset that basically said, "Well, you know, he may be a dictator, but he's our dictator."

而问题是，10年来，约翰所执行的战略则是惯坏了穆沙拉夫。由于我们的反民主，我们疏远了巴基斯坦人民。我们用的是一个20世纪的观点：“嗯，你知道他也许是一个独裁者，但他是我们的独裁者。”

And as a consequence, we lost legitimacy in Pakistan. We spent $10 billion. And in the meantime, they weren't going after Al Qaida, and they are more powerful now than at any time since we began the war in Afghanistan.

这样做的后果是，我们在巴基斯坦失去了合法性。我们花掉了100亿美元。而同时，他们却没有抓捕基地组织成员，现在他们（基地组织）比阿富汗战争开始以来的时候时候都要强悍。

That's going to change when I'm president of the United States.

如果我是美国总统，我会改变那样的战略。

punkxxx

MCCAIN: I -- I don't think that Senator Obama understands that there was a failed state in Pakistan when Musharraf came to power. Everybody who was around then, and had been there, and knew about it knew that it was a failed state.

麦凯恩：我……我不认为奥巴马议员知道当穆沙拉夫上台时，就有一个（巴基斯坦的）省控制不了。所有当时在的人，去过那里的人，都知道那（边境地区）是一个不受控制的省。

But let me tell you, you know, this business about bombing Iran and all that, let me tell you my record.

但让我来告诉你，你知道的，关于说要轰炸伊朗还有（你谈到的）所有的那些，让我告诉你我的履历。

Back in 1983, when I was a brand-new United States congressman, the one -- the person I admired the most and still admire the most, Ronald Reagan, wanted to send Marines into Lebanon.

远在1983年，当时我是美国国会的新人，那位……那个我现在仍然最敬佩的人，罗纳德.里根（注：罗纳德·威尔逊·里根，美国第40任总统，1981年-1989年），想要派遣海军陆战队去黎巴嫩。

（注：1983年的黎巴嫩局势

1982年6月9日，叙利亚和以色列各出动一百余架飞机。以色列一举击落八十三架叙利亚飞机，摧毁了叙利亚部署在贝卡谷地和叙黎边界的导弹设施，使叙军遭到重大损失。
1982年12月，苏联加强了它在中东的活动，大力援助叙利亚，向它提供从未在它本土或华约国之外部署的萨姆——五防空导弹和 SC——2l导弹，并派去了七千多名军事和技术人员，使叙利亚军事力量迅速得到恢复和加强。
1983年10月23日和11月4日，美国和法国驻贝鲁特军队总部和以色列驻苏尔军队总部先后被炸，二百三十九名美国军人和数十名以色列士兵被炸死。
1983年11月，美国和以色列高层在一次美以首脑会谈中，决定对驻黎巴嫩的叙利亚军采取军事行动。
1983年12月2日，以色列出动飞机轰炸了叙利亚军队、巴勒斯坦游击队和德鲁兹民兵在黎巴嫩中部山区的阵地。
1983年12月4日，美国从它在黎沿海游弋的两艘航空母舰上出动二十八架飞机，轰炸了叙利亚军队在舒夫山区和贝鲁特——大马士革国际公路附近的阵地，使叙军遭到一些损失，美国三架飞机被击落。
1983年12月5日，美国军舰炮击了德鲁兹民兵的阵地。）

And I saw that, and I saw the situation, and I stood up, and I voted against that, because I was afraid that they couldn't make peace in a place where 300 or 400 or several hundred Marines would make a difference. Tragically, I was right: Nearly 300 Marines lost their lives in the bombing of the barracks.

而我看清了，我看清了当时的局势，于是我站起来投票反对了它（派兵去黎巴嫩的提议），因为我担心在那个地方，他们不能讲和，而300或者400或几百名士兵不能改变局势。悲剧性的是，我猜对了：几乎300名士兵在一次兵营的爆炸中失去了他们的生命。

And then we had Somalia -- then we had the first Gulf War. I supported -- I supported that.

然后就是索马里——之后是第一次海湾战争。我支持了——我支持了它。

I supported us going into Bosnia, when a number of my own party and colleagues was against that operation in Bosnia. That was the right thing to do, to stop genocide and to preserve what was necessary inside of Europe.

我支持派兵去波斯尼亚。当时许多共和党人和我的同僚们都反对在波斯尼亚的行动。但那是正确的行动，去阻止大屠杀，并保留欧洲内重要的（一个民族）。

（注：波斯尼亚，南斯拉夫中西部的一地区。7世纪塞族人定居于此，12世纪成为一个独立国家。1483年以后波斯尼亚被土耳其控制，后来被奥匈帝国吞并。）

I supported what we did in Kosovo. I supported it because ethnic cleansing and genocide was taking place there.

我支持我们后来在科索沃的行动。我支持是因为当时那里正在发生种族清洗和大屠杀。

And I have a record -- and Somalia, I opposed that we should turn -- turn the force in Somalia from a peacekeeping force into a peacemaking force, which they were not capable of.

而我的履历——在索马里，我反对把……把在索马里的维和部队变为调和部队。我们没有能力调和。

So I have a record. I have a record of being involved in these national security issues, which involve the highest responsibility and the toughest decisions that any president can make, and that is to send our young men and women into harm's way.

所以我有（相当的）履历，涉入了这些民族安全问题的履历。这些问题包括了任何一个总统的最高的责任和能做出的最艰难的决定——即，将我们的青年男女送入火海。

And I'll tell you, I had a town hall meeting in Wolfeboro, New Hampshire, and a woman stood up and she said, "Senator McCain, I want you to do me the honor of wearing a bracelet with my son's name on it."

我要告诉你们，我参加了新罕布什尔州汉普郡的沃尔夫保罗一次市民大会，当时一位妇女站起来说：“麦凯恩议员，我希望你能赏脸将这个手镯戴上，那上面有我儿子的名字”。

（注：新罕布什尔州：美国东北部一个州，位于佛蒙特和缅因之间。被认为是1788年最初十三个殖民地之一。于1603年首先被发现，17世纪20年代至 30年代来自马萨诸塞的殖民者在此定居，1741年成为一个独立的殖民地。新罕布什尔州是最先宣布脱离英国而独立并建立自己的政府(1776年1月）的一个殖民地。康科德是其首府，曼彻斯特是最大城市。人口1,113,915）

He was 22 years old and he was killed in combat outside of Baghdad, Matthew Stanley, before Christmas last year. This was last August, a year ago. And I said, "I will -- I will wear his bracelet with honor."

她的儿子叫马太.斯坦尼，22岁，在去年圣诞节前，死在了巴格达郊外的一次战斗中。具体时间是去年八月份。我说：“当然——我为戴着你的儿子的手镯而感到骄傲。”

And this was August, a year ago. And then she said, "But, Senator McCain, I want you to do everything -- promise me one thing, that you'll do everything in your power to make sure that my son's death was not in vain."

这就是去年八月发生的。然后她又说：“但是麦凯恩议员，答应我一件事——我希望你尽一切努力，尽你能力范围内的一切努力让我的儿子没有白白死去。”

That means that that mission succeeds, just like those young people who re-enlisted in Baghdad, just like the mother I met at the airport the other day whose son was killed. And they all say to me that we don't want defeat.

那意味着那个任务（伊拉克战争）的胜利，就像那些在巴格达延长服役期限的年轻人，就像另一天我在机场遇到的另一位失去儿子的母亲，他们都告诉我我们不能输。

MCCAIN: A war that I was in, where we had an Army, that it wasn't through any fault of their own, but they were defeated. And I know how hard it is for that -- for an Army and a military to recover from that. And it did and we will win this one and we won't come home in defeat and dishonor and probably have to go back if we fail.

在我参加过的一场战争中，当时我们的部队没有犯下任何错误，但却（由于错误的战略指挥而）遭到了失败。我知道那是多么的困难，对于部队还有军方，多么难以走出那阴影。而我们得赢这场战争（伊拉克战争），我们不能带着失败回家，我们不能蒙羞，而如果我们失败了，我们可能还不得不再回去。

punkxxx

OBAMA: Jim, let me just make a point. I've got a bracelet, too, from Sergeant - from the mother of Sergeant Ryan David Jopeck (ph), given to me in grain bin green bay. She asked me, can you please make sure another mother is not going through what I'm going through.

奥巴马：吉姆，让我指出一点来。我也得到了一条手镯，是中士——中士赖安.大卫.杰佩克的母亲在绿湾粮仓给我的。她对我说，你能让别的母亲不会遭受我所遭受的（悲剧）吗？

（注：
绿湾（Green Bay）是位于美国威斯康星州布朗县的一座城市，也是该县的县治所在。根据美国人口调查局2000年统计，共有人口41,591，其中白人占85.86%、亚裔美国人占3.76%、印第安人占3.28%、非裔美国人占1.38%。
威斯康星州，威斯康星州美国中北部一州。1848年作为第三十个州加入。首先由法国殖民者建立，1763年割让给大不列颠，1787年成为西北地区的一部分。麦迪逊市是该州首府，密尔沃基市是最大城市。人口4,906,745）

No U.S. soldier ever dies in vain because they're carrying out the missions of their commander in chief. And we honor all the service that they've provided. Our troops have performed brilliantly. The question is for the next president, are we making good judgments about how to keep America safe precisely because sending our military into battle is such an enormous step.

没有一个美国士兵是白白牺牲的，因为他们在执行他们的总司令的任务。我为他们所作出的一切贡献而感到光荣。我们的队伍一直以来表现优秀。对下一届总统来说，问题是我们是否作出了正确的判断以精确地确保美国的安全，因为把部队派上战场是如此重大的一步。

And the point that I originally made is that we took our eye off Afghanistan, we took our eye off the folks who perpetrated 9/11, they are still sending out videotapes and Senator McCain, nobody is talking about defeat in Iraq, but I have to say we are having enormous problems in Afghanistan because of that decision.

而我最初指出的一点是我们把注意力从阿富汗转移了，我们把注意力从那些犯下911罪行的人们身上转移了，他们现在还在送出（基地组织的）录像带。而麦凯恩议员，没有人说（我们）在伊拉克是失败，但我得说的是由于那个决定，我们现在在阿富汗正面临严峻的问题。

And it is not true you have consistently been concerned about what happened in Afghanistan. At one point, while you were focused on Iraq, you said well, we can "muddle through" Afghanistan. You don't muddle through the central front on terror and you don't muddle through going after bin Laden. You don't muddle through stamping out the Taliban.

还有，关于你一直在关注阿富汗所发生的也不是真的。当你正聚焦伊拉克的时候，你说：嗯，我们可以“应付过去”阿富汗。你不能应付过去反恐的前沿阵地中心，不能应付过去追捕本拉登，不能应付过去剿灭塔利班。

I think that is something we have to take seriously. And when I'm president, I will.

我认为那是我们必须得认真对待的事情。而当我是总统时，我会的。

LEHRER: New ...

主持人：新的……

MCCAIN: You might think that with that kind of concern that Senator Obama would have gone to Afghanistan, particularly given his responsibilities as a subcommittee chairman. By the way, when I'm subcommittee chairman, we take up the issues under my subcommittee. But the important thing is -- the important thing is I visited Afghanistan and I traveled to Waziristan and I traveled to these places and I know what our security requirements are. I know what our needs are. So the point is that we will prevail in Afghanistan, but we need the new strategy and we need it to succeed. But the important thing is, if we suffer defeat in Iraq, which General Petraeus predicts we will, if we adopted Senator Obama's set date for withdrawal, then that will have a calamitous effect in Afghanistan and American national security interests in the region. Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand there is a connected between the two.

（注：这一段在上面那位兄台的博客中不知为何没有。）
麦凯恩：你们也许会认为在那样的关心下，麦凯恩议员会去阿富汗，特别是履行他作为他那个（分管阿富汗事务的）小组委员会主席的职责，而他没有。顺便说一下，当我是我那个小组委员会的主席时，我们承担了我那的小组委员会的事务。重要的是——重要的是我去过阿富汗，我去过瓦齐里斯坦，我去过那些地方。我知道我们的安全需要是什么。我知道我们需要什么。所以我要说，我们将会在阿富汗成功，但我们需要新的战略来达到成功。但重要的是，如果我们采用了奥巴马议员的建议，即为撤退设定一个日期，我们将如彼得雷乌斯将军所预料的那样，在伊拉克失败。那将对阿富汗还有美国民族在那个地区的安全利益造成灾难性的影响。奥巴马议员似乎并没有理解这两个（伊拉克和阿富汗）之间的联系。

punkxxx

LEHRER: I have some good news and bad news for the two of you. You all are even on time, which is remarkable, considering we've been going at it ...

主持人：我有一些好消息和一些坏消息给你们两位。你们两位用掉的时间都差不多，这很不错，考虑到我们一直是在全力以赴……

OBAMA: A testimony to you, Jim.

奥巴马：对你来说那是显而易见的事实，吉姆。

（

注：这句话省略掉了That is。要完整地理解这句话，应该这么理解：
That is a testimony to you, Jim.
用另一种罗嗦的方式来描述：吉姆，我们两人所用掉的时间差不多这个事实，显而易见，你是很清楚的，因为你有记录。

testimony指在法庭上的证据。

奥巴马此话，似乎把主持人吉姆捧成了法官，这句话被人指出有马屁的嫌疑。因为法官并不是这位主持人，法官是每一个美国人。还有，我感觉上奥巴马无论是在主持人说这句话之前还是之后都经常插话，他用掉的时间应该比麦凯恩多。

我看到这里时，渐渐地开始不大信任奥巴马了。

）

LEHRER: I don't know about that. But the bad news is all my little five minute things have run over, so, anyhow, we'll adjust as we get there. But the amount of time is even.

主持人：我不知道。但坏消息是我们的每个5分钟（自由讨论阶段）都超时了，嗯，不管怎样，我们得在后面做一点调整了。但给你们双方的时间都是均等的。

New lead question. And it goes two minutes to you, Senator McCain, what is your reading on the threat to Iran right now to the security of the United States?

新的引导问题。这两分钟是你的，麦凯恩议员，你如何解读当前伊朗对美国安全的威胁？

MCCAIN: My reading of the threat from Iran is that if Iran acquires nuclear weapons, it is an existential threat to the State of Israel and to other countries in the region because the other countries in the region will feel compelling requirement to acquire nuclear weapons as well.

麦凯恩：我对来自伊朗的威胁的解读是如果伊朗获得了核武器，它将是对以色列和周边地区的实际威胁，因为在那个地区的其他国家将感到迫切的需要去同样获得核武器。

Now we cannot a second Holocaust. Let's just make that very clear. What I have proposed for a long time, and I've had conversation with foreign leaders about forming a league of democracies, let's be clear and let's have some straight talk. The Russians are preventing significant action in the United Nations Security Council.

而我们不能允许第二次（对犹太人的）大屠杀。让我们明确那一点。很长时间来我一直有个建议，而且我已经和国外的领导人有过对话，即关于构建一个民主国家的联盟，让我们（民主国家们）干净利落点，并多一些直接对话。俄罗斯人一直在阻碍联合国安理会有意义的行动。

I have proposed a league of democracies, a group of people - a group of countries that share common interests, common values, common ideals, they also control a lot of the world's economic power. We could impose significant meaningful, painful sanctions on the Iranians that I think could have a beneficial effect.

我建议成立这个民主国家联盟，它由一群人 —— 多个国家构成，这些国家拥有共同的利益，共同的价值观，共同的理想，它们也控制了这个世界上大部分的经济实力。我们就可以对伊朗实施有相当意义和令其痛苦的制裁，而那将会产生有益的效果。

The Iranians have a lousy government, so therefore their economy is lousy, even though they have significant oil revenues. So I am convinced that together, we can, with the French, with the British, with the Germans and other countries, democracies around the world, we can affect Iranian behavior.

伊朗人有着一个龌龊的政府，也因而有着龌龊的经济，哪怕他们拥有巨大的石油暴利。所以我相信我们一起，和法国、英国、德国还有其他国家，和全世界的民主国家，我梦能改变伊朗的行为。

But have no doubt, but have no doubt that the Iranians continue on the path to the acquisition of a nuclear weapon as we speak tonight. And it is a threat not only in this region but around the world.

但毫不怀疑地，毫不怀疑地就在我们谈话的今晚，伊朗人还在向获取核武器的道路上前进。它不仅仅是那个地区的威胁，还是对世界的威胁。

What I'd also like to point out the Iranians are putting the most lethal IEDs into Iraq which are killing young Americans, there are special groups in Iran coming into Iraq and are being trained in Iran. There is the Republican Guard in Iran, which Senator Kyl had an amendment in order to declare them a sponsor of terror. Senator Obama said that would be provocative.

我还想指出伊朗人正在把最具杀伤力的爆炸装置运往伊拉克，而那将夺走美国年轻人的命。有一个特别小组正在从伊朗前往伊拉克，这些人都是在伊朗接受训练。凯尔议员作了点修正，以便声明伊朗的共和国卫队军是恐怖组织的一个发起组织。而奥巴马议员说那是在挑衅伊朗。

（注：简易爆炸装置或即造爆炸装置或土制炸弹（Improvised Explosive Device，IED）泛指任何利用现有或临时制造的材料所制成之炸弹。传统引爆方式是采用计时装置来引爆，随后出现以遥控方式进行引爆（特别是利用无线电或行动电话等器材作为引爆装置）。在伊拉克和阿富汗战场上，美军查获的IED已采用是感应式引信和防拆装置，显见IED的设计与制造已逐渐趋向复杂化和精密化，已非能以“简易爆炸装置”来叙述。

Senator Kyl，琼·凯尔（Jon Kyl，1942年4月25日—）是共和党的美国参议员，来自亚利桑那州。在参议院于2007年1月3日展开新会期后，凯尔也多了一项职务—担任参议院里共和党协商会（Republican Conference）的主席，使他成为参议院里名列第三的共和党重要人物。）

So this is a serious threat. This is a serious threat to security in the world, and I believe we can act and we can act with our friends and allies and reduce that threat as quickly as possible, but have no doubt about the ultimate result of them acquiring nuclear weapons.

所以这是一个严重的威胁。这是对世界和平的一个严重的威胁。我相信我们能行动……我们能和我们的朋友和盟友并尽快消减那个威胁。我毫不怀疑他们试图获取核武器的最终后果。

cnwelf

我个人还是希望OBAMA获得胜利。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Two minutes on Iran, Senator Obama.

主持人：关于伊朗，两分钟，奥巴马议员。

OBAMA: Well, let me just correct something very quickly. I believe the Republican Guard of Iran is a terrorist organization. I've consistently said so. What Senator McCain refers to is a measure in the Senate that would try to broaden the mandate inside of Iraq.

奥巴马：嗯，请让我快速指正一些东西。我认为伊朗共和国卫队是一个恐怖组织。我一向这么说。而麦凯恩议员所提到的是议会里的一个权衡，即是否扩大伊拉克的委任。

To deal with Iran, and ironically, the single thing that has strengthened Iran over the last several years has been the war in Iraq. Iraq was Iran's mortal enemy. That was cleared away. And what we've seen over the last several years is Iran's influence grow. They have funded Hezbollah, they have funded Hamas, they have gone from zero centrifuges to 4,000 centrifuges to develop a nuclear weapon.

回到伊朗，讽刺的是，唯一让伊朗在过去数年间强大的就是伊拉克战争。伊拉克曾是伊朗的死敌。现在它已经不再是了。而我们过去数年来看到的是伊朗影响力的增加。他们支助了黎巴嫩真主党，支助了哈马斯（注：一个巴勒斯坦激进组织），他们从无到有现在已经有了4000台离心机用于开发核武器。

So obviously, our policy over the last eight years has not worked. Senator McCain is absolutely right, we cannot tolerate a nuclear Iran. It would be a game changer. Not only would it threaten Israel, a country that is our stalwart ally, but it would also create an environment in which you could set off an arms race in this Middle East.

所以，很明显，我们过去八年的政策不起作用。麦凯恩议员完全正确，那就是我们不能忍受一个拥有核武器的伊朗。他会改变游戏规则，不仅仅会威胁我们坚定的盟友以色列，还会改变中东局势并引发军备竞赛。

Now here's what we need to do. We do need tougher sanctions. I do not agree with Senator McCain that we're going to be able to execute the kind of sanctions we need without some cooperation with some countries like Russia and China that are, I think Senator McCain would agree, not democracies, but have extensive trade with Iran but potentially have an interest in making sure Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon.

这是我们所要做的：我们需要更加强硬的制裁。我不同意麦凯恩议员的观点，我认为要执行我们需要的制裁，我们不能没有来自一些国家如俄罗斯还有中国的合作。我想麦凯恩议员也许也会同意，他们（虽然）没有民主政治，但却和伊朗有着广泛的贸易合作，而且他们也希望看到一个没有核武器的伊朗。

But we are also going to have to, I believe, engage in tough direct diplomacy with Iran and this is a major difference I have with Senator McCain, this notion by not talking to people we are punishing them has not worked. It has not worked in Iran, it has not worked in North Korea. In each instance, our efforts of isolation have actually accelerated their efforts to get nuclear weapons. That will change when I'm president of the United States.

但我认为，我们也将得开展同伊朗的艰难地直接外交对话。这是我和麦凯恩议员的一个主要的区别。不和我们所惩罚的人们对话，这个观点在伊朗没有成功，在朝鲜（也）没有成功。在两个场合（伊朗和朝鲜），我们试图孤立他们的努力实际上加速了他们去获取核武器的努力。而当我是美国总统时，那会发生改变的。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Senator, what about talking?

主持人：（麦凯恩）议员，你怎么说？

MCCAIN: Senator Obama twice said in debates he would sit down with Ahmadinejad, Chavez and Raul Castro without precondition. Without precondition. Here is Ahmadinenene (ph), Ahmadinejad, who is, Ahmadinejad, who is now in New York, talking about the extermination of the State of Israel, of wiping Israel off the map, and we're going to sit down, without precondition, across the table, to legitimize and give a propaganda platform to a person that is espousing the extermination of the state of Israel, and therefore then giving them more credence in the world arena and therefore saying, they've probably been doing the right thing, because you will sit down across the table from them and that will legitimize their illegal behavior.

麦凯恩：奥巴马议员两次在辩论中说到他将会和内贾德（注：伊朗总统），查韦斯（注：委内瑞拉总统 Hugo Chavez）还有劳尔.卡斯特罗（注：古巴领导人）没有任何前提就一起坐下来谈，没有任何前提。这位内贾尼……呃，内贾德，现在在纽约，谈论着要灭绝以色列，要把以色列从地图上清除掉，而（你却想让）我们要坐下来，没有任何前提，在桌面上，合法化他的行为，并给那个赞成要灭绝以色列的人一个宣传的平台。这将因此给他们在世界舞台上增加信用度，这也因此等于是（我们）在说，他们也许一直在做的是正确的事情，因为你坐下来和他们在桌面上（谈），而那还会将他们的不合法行为合法化。

（注：我觉得麦凯恩这一段对美国利益来说，言之有理。）

The point is that throughout history, whether it be Ronald Reagan, who wouldn't sit down with Brezhnev, Andropov or Chernenko until Gorbachev was ready with glasnost and perestroika.

重点是在历史上，不管是罗纳德.里根，他没有坐下来和勃列日涅夫，安德罗波夫坐下来谈，直到戈尔巴乔夫准备好了公开化和改革为止；

（

注： “伟大领袖” 列昂尼德·伊里奇·勃列日涅夫（1906—1982）是苏联第四代领导人。从1964年10月起到1982年11月去世为止，共执掌这个世界第二强国的最高领导权达十八年，在苏联六十九年历史中，执政时间仅次于斯大林。勃列日涅夫毕业于乌克兰的第涅伯彼得罗夫斯克矿业冶金学院，从事党的工作；1941年卫国战争爆发，勃列日涅夫以中校军衔参加红军，1942年任第18集团军政治部主任；战争结束时任乌克兰第四方面军政治部主任，少将军衔。确切地说，勃列日涅夫并未真正上过前线，只是在后方隐蔽所里鼓舞士气。

注：尤里·安德罗波夫(Yuri Andropov，1914年-1984年)，苏联特务组织克格勃首脑、政治家。1939 年他加入苏联共产党，1953年任匈牙利大使，1956年镇压了匈牙利事件。1967年开始任克格勃首脑，实行政治高压政策，对持异议的知识分子进行镇压，将他们送进克格勃管制下的精神病院进行非人道的折磨。1982年11月他接替勃列日涅夫成为苏联共产党总书记，在任期间，继承了勃列日涅夫的政策， 1984年逝世，由契尔年科接任总书记职务。

注：“卓越领袖” 康斯坦丁·乌斯季诺维奇·契尔年科(Konstantin Ustinovich Chernenko)，(1984年2月13日-1985年3月10日)。苏联党务和国务活动家，曾任苏联共产党中央总书记、苏共中央政治局委员、中央书记。


注：glasnost，苏联政府关于在对社会问题和弊端的讨论中强调公平的一个官方政策。

注：perestroika，指开始于20世纪80年代中期对苏联经济和官僚政治的重新组织

）

Or whether it be Nixon's trip to China, which was preceded by Henry Kissinger, many times before he went. Look, I'll sit down with anybody, but there's got to be pre-conditions. Those pre-conditions would apply that we wouldn't legitimize with a face to face meeting, a person like Ahmadinejad. Now, Senator Obama said, without preconditions.

还是尼克松的访华，而在他之前，亨利.基辛格已经来华了多次。你看，我会和任何人坐下来谈，但必须得有前提条件。而那些前提条件涉及我们不会以面对面的会议去合法化，类似于内贾德那样的人。而现在，奥巴马议员说不需要前提条件。

（

注：理查德·米尔豪斯·尼克松（Richard Milhous Nixon，1913年1月9日－1994年4月22日），第36任美国副总统（1953年—1961年）与第37任美国总统（1969年—1974 年）。尼克松是美国史上唯一一位当过两届副总统与两届总统的人，但也是唯一一位于在位期间，以辞职的方式离开总统职位的美国总统。他在1974年8月因 “水门事件”事件曝光之后（授权非法闯入民主党在水门饭店的总部，并下令掩盖事件真相，事后福特总统给予尼克松特赦，以便缓解全美上下在尼克松总统因水门事件辞职后出现的分歧。）被迫辞去总统职务，成为唯一一位由于辞职而离任的美国总统。

注：亨利·艾尔弗雷德·基辛格 (Henry Alfred Kissinger) 1923年5月27日生于德国费尔特市。犹太人后裔。1938年移居美国。1943年加入美国籍。1950年毕业于哈佛大学，1952年获文学硕士、 1954年获哲学博士学位。1971年7月，基辛格作为尼克松总统特使访华，为中美关系大门的开启作出了历史性贡献。

punkxxx

OBAMA: So let's talk about this. First of all, Ahmadinejad is not the most powerful person in Iran. So he may not be the right person to talk to. But I reserve the right, as president of the United States to meet with anybody at a time and place of my choosing if I think it's going to keep America safe.

奥巴马：所以让我们谈谈这个。首先，内贾德并不是伊朗最有实力的人。所以他也许并不是对话的恰当人选。但我保留这个权利，作为美国总统在任何时间任何地点去会见我选择的任何人，如果我认为那样对美国安全有益的话。

（注：我个人以为，奥巴马此句，实在过了。他还没有当上美国总统呢，就如此地自以为是。作为一个领导人，特别是像美国总统这样的重要人物，怎么能够如此地以自我为中心？

在资治通鉴中，任何一个兴旺的朝代，其皇帝都非常开明，这以唐太宗李世民为最。而在唐太宗李世民的治下，唐朝经济发展，社会安定，政治清明，人民富裕安康，出现了空前的繁荣。由于他在位时年号为贞观，所以人们把他统治的这一段时期称为“贞观之治”。“贞观之治”是我国历史上最为璀璨夺目的时期。

唐太宗从波澜壮阔的农民战争中认识到人民群众力量的伟大，吸取隋朝灭亡的原因，非常重视老百姓的生活。他强调以民为本，常说：“民，水也；君，舟也。水能载舟，亦能覆舟。”太宗即位之初，下令轻徭薄赋，让老百姓休养生息。唐太宗爱惜民力，从不轻易征发徭役。他患有气疾，不适合居住在潮湿的旧宫殿，但他一直在隋朝的旧宫殿里住了很久。他还下令合并州县，革除“民少吏多”的弊利，有利于减轻人民负担。

唐太宗十分注重法治，他曾说：“国家法律不是帝王一家之法，是天下都要共同遵守的法律，因此一切都要以法为准。”作为一位万人之上的君主能够说出这样一番话来，唐太宗不愧是一位开明的皇帝。?法律制定出来后，唐太宗以身作则，带头守法，维护法律的划一和稳定。在贞观时期，真正地做到了王子犯法与民同罪。执法时铁面无私，但量刑时太宗又反复思考，慎之又慎。他说：“人死了不能再活，执法务必宽大简约。”由于太宗的苦心经营，贞观年间法制情况很好，犯法的人少了，被判死刑的更少。据载贞观三年，全国判死刑的才29人，几乎达到了封建社会法制的最高标准——“刑措”即可以不用刑罚。

以民为本的思想，广开言路，虚怀纳谏的胸襟；重用人才，唯才是任的准则；铁面无私，依法办事的气度构成了贞观之治的基本特色，成为封建治世最好的榜样，使唐朝在当时与西方国家相比，无论在政治、经济，还是文化上都走在世界的最前列。

贞观王朝的强盛是中国的任何一个王朝都无法比拟的。纵观中国历史上的几个强盛王朝，强盛的标志不外乎国富兵强和民丰物阜，在深层文明（主要指制度和文化遗产）上作出突出建树的有贞观王朝。正因为有了贞观之治的基础，武则天才能做到“政启开元”，从而为开元盛世奠定基础。开元盛世的富庶有大诗人杜甫的一首诗 “忆昔开元全盛日，小邑犹藏万家室，稻米流脂粟米白，公私仓廪俱丰实……” 为证。与生产力的高度发展相适应，唐王朝的国际威望也达到了顶峰，对外战争取得连绵的胜利，连续百余年保持连续不断的进攻态势，疆土极度扩张，朝鲜、漠北、西域的辽阔疆土相继并入中国的版图，西部疆土直达咸海东岸的石国（中亚细亚塔什干城）。

正因为唐朝的强盛，中国人也被称为“唐人”。现今西方华人聚居处也被称为“唐人街”。

反复看唐太宗为人做事的办法，感觉他和现在的西方的很多思想、企业文化都非常相似。一千多年前啊，真的非常了不起。

）

And I'm glad that Senator McCain brought up the history, the bipartisan history of us engaging in direct diplomacy.

我很高兴麦凯恩议员把历史引出来，我们两党在直接外交上共同的历史。

OBAMA: Senator McCain mentioned Henry Kissinger, who's one of his advisers, who, along with five recent secretaries of state, just said that we should meet with Iran -- guess what -- without precondition. This is one of your own advisers.

奥巴马：麦凯恩议员提到了亨利.基辛格，他是麦凯恩议员的一个顾问，他伴随过了之前的5任国务卿。他说我们应该和伊朗会谈——你猜什么——在没有前提下。这可是你自己的一个顾问。

Now, understand what this means "without preconditions." It doesn't mean that you invite them over for tea one day. What it means is that we don't do what we've been doing, which is to say, "Until you agree to do exactly what we say, we won't have direct contacts with you."

搞清楚“没有前提”是什么意思。它不是说某天你邀请他们来喝茶。它是指我们不做我们一直在做的，即：“你要是不完全照我说的做，我就不和你联系。”

There's a difference between preconditions and preparation. Of course we've got to do preparations, starting with low-level diplomatic talks, and it may not work, because Iran is a rogue regime.

前提和准备是有区别的。我们当然得做准备，以低端的外交会谈开始，那也许不起作用，毕竟伊朗是个流氓政权。

But I will point out that I was called naive when I suggested that we need to look at exploring contacts with Iran. And you know what? President Bush recently sent a senior ambassador, Bill Burns, to participate in talks with the Europeans around the issue of nuclear weapons.

但我要指出当我建议我们需要探索和伊朗的联系时，我被人说是“幼稚”。但你知道吗？布什总统最近排出了一位高级大使，比尔.伯恩斯，去欧洲参加了关于核武器的讨论。

Again, it may not work, but if it doesn't work, then we have strengthened our ability to form alliances to impose the tough sanctions that Senator McCain just mentioned.

再说一次，对话也许不起作用，但如果它不起作用，那么我们就要增强我们的能力，构建盟军，并对伊朗实施麦凯恩议员刚才提到的严厉制裁。

And when we haven't done it, as in North Korea -- let me just take one more example -- in North Korea, we cut off talks. They're a member of the axis of evil. We can't deal with them.

而当我们没有完成它（对话）时，就像在朝鲜——让我把它拿来作为一个例子——在朝鲜，我们切断了谈话，（我们认为）他们是邪恶轴心的一个成员，我们不能和他们谈判。

And you know what happened? They went -- they quadrupled their nuclear capacity. They tested a nuke. They tested missiles. They pulled out of the nonproliferation agreement. And they sent nuclear secrets, potentially, to countries like Syria.

然后你们知道发生了什么吗？他们去——他们把他们的核工业能力增大了4倍，他们做了核爆试验（注：2006年10月9日），他们实验了导弹。他们脱离了防止核扩散协议。他们还把核武器的机密可能给了类似于叙利亚这样的国家。

（注：引用网络上一位朋友的话：朝鲜核爆地点就在中朝边境，无论是地震还是核污染中国都是首当其冲。朝鲜的燃油、煤炭、粮食、日用品都是由中国供养着，更别提军事技术和广阔的战略腹地了。但朝鲜似乎是一个被宠惯坏了的孩子，你越是安抚，我就越不把你放在眼里。
对中国的戕害也有三条：
1、面子扫地。让人觉得中国作为世界大国，又是朝鲜的半个主人，却管不住自己的小兄弟，影响力太差；
2、事先通报中国，是想拖中国下水，让人觉得你们中朝还是一伙儿的。这样可以让中国做朝鲜的挡箭牌和替罪羊，朝鲜又可以躲在一边偷着乐了；
3、核爆等于推倒了东亚的核竞赛多米诺，日本、韩国、台湾都可以以此为借口，堂而皇之地发展核武，这是对中国国家利益的最大危害。）

When we re-engaged -- because, again, the Bush administration reversed course on this -- then we have at least made some progress, although right now, because of the problems in North Korea, we are seeing it on shaky ground.

当我们再次启动会谈——因为，再说一次，布什政府在这个问题上的颠倒顺序——我们至少还做出了一些进展。虽然现在因为朝鲜的问题，我们是战战兢兢地看着它。

（注：美国人挺“怕”朝鲜的。其实对于穷兵黩武的国家，任何正常的国家都会觉得害怕。）

And -- and I just -- so I just have to make this general point that the Bush administration, some of Senator McCain's own advisers all think this is important, and Senator McCain appears resistant.

我刚刚……我刚刚提到这点，那就是布什政府的决定（再次和朝鲜对话），麦凯恩议员自己的一些顾问认为很重要，而麦凯恩议员看起来反对这点。

He even said the other day that he would not meet potentially with the prime minister of Spain, because he -- you know, he wasn't sure whether they were aligned with us. I mean, Spain? Spain is a NATO ally.

奥巴马：他甚至另一天说他也许将不和西班牙首相会面，因为他——你知道，他不能确信西班牙是否是我们的盟友。我是说，西班牙？西班牙可是北约的一个盟国啊。

MCCAIN: Of course.

麦凯恩：当然是。

OBAMA: If we can't meet with our friends, I don't know how we're going to lead the world in terms of dealing with critical issues like terrorism.

奥巴马：如果我们不和我们的朋友会面，我不知道我们在处理一些关键问题例如恐怖主义上如何领导世界。

punkxxx

MCCAIN: I'm not going to set the White House visitors schedule before I'm president of the United States. I don't even have a seal yet.

麦凯恩：我可不会在我成为美国总统之前就预订好哪些人要来白宫访问。我甚至还没有自己的印章。

（注：麦凯恩此话，一是讽刺奥巴马在没有成为总统前，就说要会见哪些人。二是讽刺奥巴马在成为总统前，就仿照美国总统的印章而做了一个印章。）

Look, Dr. Kissinger did not say that he would approve of face-to-face meetings between the president of the United States and the president -- and Ahmadinejad. He did not say that.

麦凯恩：听着，基辛格博士没有说过他会支持美国总统和伊朗总统……呃，内贾德的面对面的会见。他没有说过。

OBAMA: Of course not.

奥巴马：（他）当然没有（说过）。

MCCAIN: He said that there could be secretary-level and lower level meetings. I've always encouraged them. The Iranians have met with Ambassador Crocker in Baghdad.

麦凯恩：他只是说可以有一些部长级和更低级的会谈。我一直鼓励他们（这样做）。伊朗人已经和克罗克大使在巴格达会面了。

What Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand that if without precondition you sit down across the table from someone who has called Israel a "stinking corpse," and wants to destroy that country and wipe it off the map, you legitimize those comments.

而奥巴马议员似乎还不理解的是，在没有前提的情况下你就和那些人隔着桌子坐下来，那些人称呼以色列为一具“腐尸”，还想毁灭那个国家，并把以色列从地图上清扫出去，你是在合法化那些评论。

This is dangerous. It isn't just naive; it's dangerous. And so we just have a fundamental difference of opinion.

这是危险的。这不仅仅是幼稚，这是危险的。这样，我们俩有本质上不同的观点。

As far as North Korea is concerned, our secretary of state, Madeleine Albright, went to North Korea. By the way, North Korea, most repressive and brutal regime probably on Earth. The average South Korean is three inches (7.62厘米) taller than the average North Korean, a huge gulag.

至于说到朝鲜，我们的国务卿麦德琳.欧布莱特去过朝鲜。顺便说一下，朝鲜这个地球上最高压和残暴的政权，韩国人的平均身高比朝鲜人的平均身高要高7.62厘米，真是一个巨大的古拉格集中营。

（注：朝鲜和韩国是同样的民族，同样的人种。

另：

大陆城市人口平均身高 170.2
大陆农村人口平均身高 166.3
日本人平均身高 171.2
台湾人平均身高 171.45

资料来源：维基百科 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

对于日本人口身高超过中国这一点，国内的论坛上倒是有些不同观点。下面这篇文章曾经被多次转贴：
“揭破无耻谎言：日本人平均身高何曾高于中国” http://www.idoer.org/Article/200710/show840728c30p1.html

按照他的说法：“根据21世纪中国人口普查，中国人北方男性平均身高为175，南方男性平均身高为170”。



这里我再补充一个国家的平均身高，美国：175.8

大家自行判断。

）

We don't know what the status of the dear leader's health is today, but we know this, that the North Koreans have broken every agreement that they've entered into.

我们不知道伟大领袖今天的健康状况怎么样，但我们知道的是，朝鲜撕毁了每一个他们曾经加入过的协议。

And we ought to go back to a little bit of Ronald Reagan's "trust, but verify," and certainly not sit down across the table from -- without precondition, as Senator Obama said he did twice, I mean, it's just dangerous.

所以我们应该回到罗纳德.里根的“相信，但查证”上，而且显然不能隔着桌子坐下来——在没有前提条件的情况下。而奥巴马议员已经说这个两次了，我说，那是危险的。

punkxxx

OBAMA: Look, I mean, Senator McCain keeps on using this example that suddenly the president would just meet with somebody without doing any preparation, without having low-level talks. Nobody's been talking about that, and Senator McCain knows it. This is a mischaracterization of my position.

奥巴马：听着，我说的是，麦凯恩议员总是拿这个例子来说事。（他说）这位总统突然就马上要和一些人会面，不做任何的准备，之前不做任何低级的对话。没人这么说，麦凯恩议员你也知道。这是对我的观点的不恰当描述。

When we talk about preconditions -- and Henry Kissinger did say we should have contacts without preconditions -- the idea is that we do not expect to solve every problem before we initiate talks.

当我们说前提条件时——亨利.基辛格确实说过我们应该不要前提条件就接触——我们的想法是我们不指望在开始谈话前就解决所有的问题。

And, you know, the Bush administration has come to recognize that it hasn't worked, this notion that we are simply silent when it comes to our enemies. And the notion that we would sit with Ahmadinejad and not say anything while he's spewing his nonsense and his vile comments is ridiculous. Nobody is even talking about that.

还有，你知道的，布什政府已经承认这么做没用，即当提到我们的敌人时，我们就简单地保持沉默。而我们会和内贾德坐下来，当（内贾德）口吐狂言时，我们啥也不说，这种观念也是可笑的。没有人那么说。

MCCAIN: So let me get this right. We sit down with Ahmadinejad, and he says, "We're going to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth,"

麦凯恩：那么，让我来帮你说清楚点。我们和内贾德坐下来，他说：“我们得把以色列从地球表面扫除。”

（注：以下为快速对话。）

MCCAIN: and we say, "No, you're not"?
麦凯恩：然后我们说：“不，你别（这样）”？
OBAMA: Yeah...
奥巴马：（插话）是啊……
MCCAIN: Oh, please.
麦凯恩：哦，请（别搞笑了）。
OBAMA: No, let me tell...
奥巴马：（插话）不是，让我告诉……

（全场笑）

MCCAIN: By the way, my friend, Dr. Kissinger, who's been my friend for 35 years, would be interested to hear this conversation and Senator Obama's depiction of his -- of his positions on the issue. I've known him for 35 years.

麦凯恩：顺便说一下，我的朋友，基辛格博士。他是我35年的朋友了。他会很感兴趣听咱们的对话还有奥巴马议员关于——关于他在这件事情上的态度的描述。（笑）我了解他已经35年了。

OBAMA: We will take a look.

奥巴马：我们可以看看。

MCCAIN: And I guarantee you he would not -- he would not say that presidential top level.

麦凯恩：而且我想你保证他不会——他不会那样说总统级（的对话）。

OBAMA: Nobody's talking about that.

奥巴马：没有人那么说。

MCCAIN: Of course he encourages and other people encourage contacts, and negotiations, and all other things. We do that all the time.

麦凯恩：当然，他还有其他人都鼓励接触，还有谈判，还有其他一些办法。我们一直那么做。

LEHRER: We're going to go to a new...

主持人：我们要开始一个新的……

(CROSSTALK)
（插话）

MCCAIN: And Senator Obama is parsing words when he says precondition means preparation.

麦凯恩：而奥巴马议员是在分解词语，他说前提条件就是准备。

OBAMA: I am not parsing words.

奥巴马：我可没有分解词语。

MCCAIN: He's parsing words, my friends.

麦凯恩：他是在分解词语，我的朋友们。

OBAMA: I'm using the same words that your advisers use. Please, go ahead.

奥巴马：我一直在用你的顾问所用的同样的词语。（对主持人）请继续下一个问题吧。

punkxxx

LEHRER: New lead question.

主持人：新的引导问题。

Russia, goes to you, two minutes, Senator Obama. How do you see the relationship with Russia? Do you see them as a competitor? Do you see them as an enemy? Do you see them as a potential partner?

俄罗斯，由你来回答，两分钟，奥巴马议员。你怎么看待（我们）和俄罗斯的关系？你认为他们是一个竞争者？还是敌人？还是潜在的合作伙伴？

OBAMA: Well, I think that, given what's happened over the last several weeks and months, our entire Russian approach has to be eva1uated, because a resurgent and very aggressive Russia is a threat to the peace and stability of the region.

奥巴马：呃，我这么想的，鉴于过去几个月以来发生的事情，我们对待俄罗斯的整体策略都得再掂量一下。因为一个复活的和极具攻击性的俄罗斯是对那个地区和平和稳定的威胁。

Their actions in Georgia were unacceptable. They were unwarranted. And at this point, it is absolutely critical for the next president to make clear that we have to follow through on our six-party -- or the six-point cease-fire. They have to remove themselves from South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

他们在格鲁吉亚的行动是不可接受的。他们无理地干涉。而现在，对下一任总统最为紧要的就是确定我们得把我们的六方——或者六点停火协议坚持到底。他们必须得从南奥塞梯和阿布哈兹撤离。

（注：格鲁吉亚共和国：黑海高加索地区的东南欧苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟的一个有制宪权的共和国。1921年为苏联红军入侵，1922年宣布为苏维埃共和国并正式加入苏联。1936年成为独立的共和国。首都是第比利斯。人口5,201,000。

奥塞梯：苏联欧洲部分南部、高加索中部一地区。此地区于1801-1806年间被俄国兼并，现已分裂，在北方为一个自治共和国，在南方则为一个自治州。南奥塞梯与“俄罗斯境内”北奥塞梯接壤。从1989年起，南奥塞梯就要求与“俄罗斯境内”的北奥塞梯合并。南奥塞梯1992年1月通过全民公决，要求成立独立共和国及与北奥塞梯合并。

阿布哈兹（Abkhazia）是格鲁吉亚的一个自治共和国，1992年自行宣布“独立”，并与格鲁吉亚发生军事冲突。阿布哈兹事实上处于独立的状态，然而它不被格鲁吉亚及国际社会承认。仅俄罗斯和尼加拉瓜宣布承认其独立。此后，联合国派遣观察团前往阿布哈兹，监控当地局势。格、阿双方经过多次谈判，至今未能解决阿布哈兹的地位问题。）

It is absolutely important that we have a unified alliance and that we explain to the Russians that you cannot be a 21st-century superpower, or power, and act like a 20th-century dictatorship.

重要的是我们要有一个统一的联盟，我们得向俄罗斯解释，作为21世纪的超级大国或者大国，不能看起来像20世纪的独裁政权。

And we also have to affirm all the fledgling democracies in that region, you know, the Estonians, the Lithuanians, the Latvians, the Poles, the Czechs, that we are, in fact, going to be supportive and in solidarity with them in their efforts. They are members of NATO.

我们也要肯定所有那个地区的新出现的民主国家，你知道的，爱沙尼亚、立陶宛、拉脱维亚、波兰、捷克。让他们知道，他们的努力将得到我们的支持，我们和他们团结在一起。他们是北约的成员。

（注：爱沙尼亚共和国是东北欧波罗的海三国之一。西向波罗的海，北向芬兰湾，南面和东面分别同拉脱维亚和俄罗斯接壤。19世纪被俄罗斯吞并，俄国十月革命之后 (1918年)独立，在第二次世界大战后的1956年正式成为了苏联的加盟共和国。1991年，在立陶宛宣布独立以后，爱沙尼亚也跟随独立。

立陶宛是一个历史古国，与俄罗斯一直在北欧及东欧争雄。过往曾一度与波兰合邦，后来被沙俄吞并。第一次世界大战后曾一度独立，但在第二次世界大战之后被斯大林领导的苏联再度吞并，沦为苏联加盟共和国之一。1990年再度争取独立并成功。

拉脱维亚（Latvija）是一个位于东北欧的国家。18世纪时，俄国从瑞典和波兰获取了现拉脱维亚的所有领土。第一次世界大战结束后，拉脱维亚于 1918 年11月18日获得独立，但在第二次世界大战期间，苏联再次兼并拉脱维亚，并将其纳为一个加盟共和国。1991年再次独立。西邻波罗的海，与在其北方的爱沙尼亚及在其南方的立陶宛共同称为波罗的海三国。）

cnwelf

伊拉克战争
最近OBAMA 他说比较多。尤其是这和MCCAIN谈得特别多

punkxxx

And to countries like Georgia and the Ukraine, I think we have to insist that they are free to join NATO if they meet the requirements, and they should have a membership action plan immediately to start bringing them in.

奥巴马：至于像格鲁吉亚和乌克兰这样的国家，我想我们得坚持他们有加入北约的自由，只要他们达到了要求。而且他们确实需要一个成员行动计划来开始把他们带起来。

（注： Membership action plan是一个北约始于1999年的计划，它用于给那些想要加入北约的国家提供建议和指导。对要加入北约的国家，每年还要检查他们在政治、经济、国防、安全等诸多方面的准备情况。这些想要加入北约的国家有：阿尔巴尼亚、保加利亚、爱沙尼亚、拉脱维亚、立陶宛、罗马尼亚、斯洛伐克、斯洛文尼亚等，其中的一些国家已经成功加入了北约。由于加入北约后，能与众多国家结成强大的防御联盟，中欧的许多小国为了自身的安全需要，都强烈希望能够加入北约。）

Now, we also can't return to a Cold War posture with respect to Russia. It's important that we recognize there are going to be some areas of common interest. One is nuclear proliferation.

我们现在也不能回到对俄罗斯的冷战姿态上去。重要的是我们得意识到（我们和俄罗斯）有一些共同的利益。其中一个就是防止核扩散。

They have not only 15,000 nuclear warheads, but they've got enough to make another 40,000, and some of those loose nukes could fall into the hands of Al Qaida.

他们不仅有1万5千个核弹头，还足以能再生产4万个，而其中一些看管不严的核武器可能落到基地组织的手里。

This is an area where I've led on in the Senate, working with a Republican ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Dick Lugar, to deal with the proliferation of loose nuclear weapons. That's an area where we're going to have to work with Russia.

这是一个我在议会里领导的领域。我和外交关系委员会的一位共和党成员，迪克.卢格，处理防止管理松懈的核武器扩散的事务。那是一个我们将和俄罗斯合作的领域。

But we have to have a president who is clear that you don't deal with Russia based on staring into his eyes and seeing his soul. You deal with Russia based on, what are your -- what are the national security interests of the United States of America?

但我们得要有一位总统，他清楚地知道在和俄罗斯打交道时，不是靠盯着他的眼睛并审视他的灵魂。你和俄罗斯打交道基于的是，我们——美利坚合众国的民族安全利益是什么。

And we have to recognize that the way they've been behaving lately demands a sharp response from the international community and our allies.

而我们还得认识到他们最近的行为要得到国际社会和我们的盟友的强烈回应。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Two minutes on Russia, Senator McCain.

主持人：2分钟在俄罗斯上（的阐述），麦凯恩议员。

MCCAIN: Well, I was interested in Senator Obama's reaction to the Russian aggression against Georgia. His first statement was, "Both sides ought to show restraint."

麦凯恩：呃，我感兴趣的是奥巴马议员对俄罗斯侵略格鲁吉亚的反应。他最初的声明是：“双方都应保持克制”。

Again, a little bit of naivete there. He doesn't understand that Russia committed serious aggression against Georgia. And Russia has now become a nation fueled by petro-dollars that is basically a KGB apparatchik-run government.

他在这里再一次有点“天真烂漫”。他没理解俄罗斯对格鲁吉亚进行了严重的侵略。而俄罗斯现在成为了一个这样的民族，它由输出石油赚来的美元供养，它的政府基本上是由前苏联共产党的克格勃掌管。

I looked into Mr. Putin's eyes, and I saw three letters, a "K," a "G," and a "B." And their aggression in Georgia is not acceptable behavior.

我仔细观察过普京先生的眼睛，我看到了三个字，“克”，“格”，还有一个“勃”。而他们对格鲁吉亚的侵略是不可接受的行为。

（注：麦凯恩在对俄罗斯的态度上，明显比奥巴马强硬。）

I don't believe we're going to go back to the Cold War. I am sure that that will not happen. But I do believe that we need to bolster our friends and allies. And that wasn't just about a problem between Georgia and Russia. It had everything to do with energy. There's a pipeline that runs from the Caspian through Georgia through Turkey. And, of course, we know that the Russians control other sources of energy into Europe, which they have used from time to time.

我不认为我们打算回到冷战。我很清楚那不会发生。但我坚信我们需要支持我们的朋友和盟友。那不仅仅是格鲁吉亚和俄罗斯之间的一个问题。那和能源有密切关系。有一条输油管道从里海开始，穿过格鲁吉亚，穿过土耳其。当然，我们知道俄罗斯控制了其他一些通向欧洲的能源渠道，而他们时不时地用它（来要挟欧洲）。

It's not accidental that the presidents of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, and Ukraine flew to Georgia, flew to Tbilisi, where I have spent significant amount of time with a great young president, Misha Saakashvili.

拉脱维亚、爱沙尼亚、立陶宛、波兰还有乌克兰的总统都飞去了格鲁吉亚，飞去第比利斯（注：格鲁吉亚共和国首都），不是偶然的。在那里，我花了相当的时间和一位年轻有为的总统在一起，他就是米哈伊尔.萨卡什维利。

（注：米哈伊尔·萨卡什维利（1967年12月21日－），格鲁吉亚政治家，现任总统。出任总统前他是格鲁吉亚的法官。2000年10月12日，萨卡什维利成为爱德华·谢瓦尔德纳泽政府的司法部长，2001年9月5日因不满政府贪污问题严重而辞职。2001年10月，萨卡什维利组建民族运动党，2002年 6月当选第比利斯市议会主席，2003年11月发动玫瑰革命使谢瓦尔德纳泽总统辞职。2004年1月4日他以96.27%的得票率当选格鲁吉亚总统。 2007年 11月25日，米哈伊尔·萨卡什维利辞去总统职务，由议长妮诺·布尔贾纳泽代行总统职责。2008年1月5日的总统选举中再次被选为总统，1月20日正式回任。据报道，萨卡什维利精通最少七种语言，包含英语、法语和俄语，他的妻子桑德拉·鲁洛夫斯为荷兰人。）

MCCAIN: And they showed solidarity with them, but, also, they are very concerned about the Russian threats to regain their status of the old Russian empire.

麦凯恩：他们显示了紧密的团结。他们也非常担忧来自俄罗斯的威胁，担忧俄罗斯企图重新回到沙俄的状态。

Now, I think the Russians ought to understand that we will support -- we, the United States -- will support the inclusion of Georgia and Ukraine in the natural process, inclusion into NATO.

现在，我认为俄罗斯应该明白我们将支持——我们，美国——将支持格鲁吉亚和乌克兰经过正常的程序，加入北约。

We also ought to make it very clear that the Russians are in violation of their cease-fire agreement. They have stationed additional troops in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

我们也需要说清楚的是俄罗斯违反了他们的停火协议。他们在阿布哈兹和南奥塞梯驻扎了额外的部队。

By the way, I went there once, and we went inside and drove in, and there was a huge poster. And this is -- this is Georgian territory. And there was a huge poster of Vladimir Putin, and it said, "Vladimir Putin, our president."

顺便说一下，我去过那里一次，我们开车进去（阿布哈兹），那里有一张巨大的张贴画。而那张画是——在格鲁吉亚的领土，那里有张巨大的普京的张贴画，上面写着：“弗拉基米尔·普京，我们的总统。”

（注：弗拉基米尔·弗拉基米罗维奇·普京，列宁格勒（现圣彼得堡）人，前任俄罗斯总统。普京2000年至2008年任总统期间，使俄罗斯在军事与政治实力上均有相当的提升，但他在民主方面遭到很多争议，可说是一位名副其实的“铁腕总统”。然而，无可否认的是普京在国内获得了极高的支持率。2007年普京被美国《时代》周刊选为当年的年度风云人物。普京在当选总统前曾经短暂担任过俄罗斯总理职务（1999年—2000年），2008年普京卸任总统后马上被继任总统梅德韦杰夫提名，第二度出任总理。

2004年3月14日，普京成功连任总统，并得到71%的绝对多数票。在他的第二届总统任期中，西方人士广泛抨击他对新闻自由的打压。与此同时，2005 年一项调查显示，82%的俄罗斯人同意新闻审查。对这一调查，社会学家们认为俄罗斯人所同意的是对伦理方面有争议的内容进行限制，而非对政治内容的限制。

主要由普京支持的统一俄罗斯党在普京任期内亦多次表达对普京及其思想的认同。2006年12月，统一俄罗斯党第七次代表大会通过纲领我们选择的俄罗斯，归纳并声明了普京思想为该党的指导思想。

由于目前俄罗斯宪法对总统任期的限制，普京无法继续参与2008年的总统大选。2007年，普京在接受八国集团记者采访时认为，“5到7年的总统任期是完全可以接受的”，暗示其可能通过修改宪法延长总统任期。前俄罗斯总统叶利钦一直反对普京修宪，在2007年国家杜马选举上大胜的统一俄罗斯党主席也发表意见说，普京不会修改宪法。

在外交方面，普京试图恢复俄罗斯在苏联时代超级大国的地位，并取得了一定成功。例如，2007年慕尼黑会议上，普京指责美国在国际事务上的专横，并声称美国在国际事务上“毫不遮掩地使用强权”。此外普京还说：“没有人会感到安全。没有人会认为国际法是一堵能保护他们的墙。美国的政策正在激发世界范围内的军备竞赛。”

普京指出，理想的世界秩序应是“一个公正、民主的世界秩序，它能保证所有人的安全与财富，而非独少数人的。”他在铀开发控制和防止太空军备中起到了重要的作用。2007年1月，普京在采访中说，俄罗斯主张民主与多极化的世界秩序，且支持巩固国际法系统。一些西方政治家长期指责普京的极权主义倾向。

资料来源：维基百科）

It was very clear, the Russian intentions towards Georgia. They were just waiting to seize the opportunity.

那非常明显，俄罗斯针对格鲁吉亚的意图。他们只是一直在等待这个机会。

So, this is a very difficult situation. We want to work with the Russians. But we also have every right to expect the Russians to behave in a fashion and keeping with a -- with a -- with a country who respects international boundaries and the norms of international behavior.

所以，这是一个非常复杂的局面。我们想要和俄罗斯合作，但我们也有足够的理由期望俄罗斯表现并保持一个 —— 一个 —— 一个这样的国家：它尊重国界线，遵守国际行为规范。

（注：俄罗斯侵吞中国的地盘，相信我们中国人深有体会。黑龙江以北，外兴安岭以南，乌苏里江以东，包括库页岛，西北巴尔喀什湖以东以南，共计150万平方千米的土地，全部都被俄罗斯吃下去了。这还不包括那个外蒙古。）

And watch Ukraine. This whole thing has got a lot to do with Ukraine, Crimea, the base of the Russian fleet in Sevastopol. And the breakdown of the political process in Ukraine between Tymoshenko and Yushchenko is a very serious problem.

再看看乌克兰。整件事情和乌克兰，克里米亚(半岛)还有俄罗斯在塞瓦斯托波尔港口的舰队基地有相当大的关系。而乌克兰在季莫申科和尤希奇恩克之间的政治进程崩溃是一个非常严重的问题。

（注：

克里米亚半岛又称克里木半岛，是位于前苏联欧洲部分南部、黑海北部海岸上的一个半岛。面积2.7万平方公里，人口250万。目前是乌克兰的一个自治共和国。在果园、葡萄园和树木的掩映下，散落着许多村庄、清真寺、修道院、俄罗斯皇家宫殿以及古希腊和中世纪的城堡。这些名胜古迹显示，从6世纪到19世纪中叶，依次有基督教徒、穆斯林鞑靼人和犹太人在这里居住和生活。就连最为激进的乌克兰民族主义者也不得不承认，克里米亚是少数能够看到乌克兰文化古迹的地区。

塞瓦斯托波尔位于亚尔港西部、黑海之滨的克里米亚。建于古希腊领地位置，它在18世纪末成为俄国主要的黑海海军基地。该城在克里米亚战争和第二次世界大战中抵御了长时间的围攻。人口341,000。

乌克兰的克里米亚半岛问题则由来已久。苏联解体后，作为独立、主权和领土完整的乌克兰把盘据在塞瓦斯多波尔几条俄舰视作眼中钉，也是国家、民族之耻。俄罗斯国家杜马独联体事务委员会主席奥斯特罗夫斯基曾宣称：“如果乌克兰加入北约的活动加速，俄罗斯将提出克里米亚半岛的归属问题。”所以乌克兰趁俄格开战时重申对军港的主权，限令俄国黑海舰队的军人、舰船及飞行器凡进入调动之前，必须提前十个工作日报告乌克兰国防部申请许可。此总统令明确表示俄军在塞瓦斯多波尔港口是客人非主人，只是暂时借地居住，并非殖民统治者的海外基地，不能随意出入乌克兰国境，更不准利用基地作战争行为。

Yulia Tymoshenko （尤利娅·季莫申科） 乌克兰前美女总理，照片在此：
/view

Viktor Yushchenko（维克多.尤希奇恩克） 乌克兰总统。

）

So watch Ukraine, and let's make sure that we -- that the Ukrainians understand that we are their friend and ally.

所以看看乌克兰，让我们确保我们……呃，乌克兰理解我们是他们的朋友和盟军。

punkxxx

LEHRER: You see any -- do you have a major difference with what he just said?

主持人：（对奥巴马）你觉得——呃，你的观点和他刚才所说的有主要的不同吗？

OBAMA: No, actually, I think Senator McCain and I agree for the most part on these issues. Obviously, I disagree with this notion that somehow we did not forcefully object to Russians going into Georgia.

奥巴马：没有，实际上，我认为麦凯恩议员和我在大部分上都有共同点。显然，我反对的是不知为何我们没有对俄罗斯入侵格鲁吉亚提出强烈抗议。

I immediately said that this was illegal and objectionable. And, absolutely, I wanted a cessation of the violence, because it put an enormous strain on Georgia, and that's why I was the first to say that we have to rebuild the Georgian economy and called for a billion dollars that has now gone in to help them rebuild.

（在俄罗斯入侵格鲁吉亚后，）我立即说这是非法的并应该抗议。而且，绝对地，我想要这暴力活动停下来，因为它对格鲁吉亚造成了太大的伤害。这也是为什么我是第一个说我们得重建格鲁吉亚的经济并呼吁那已经投入帮助他们重建经济的数十亿美元。

Because part of Russia's intentions here was to weaken the economy to the point where President Saakashvili was so weakened that he might be replaced by somebody that Putin favored more.

因为俄罗斯的部分意图是削弱格鲁吉亚的经济，直到萨卡什维利总统失势，这样他就可能被另外一些普京更希望的人取代。

Two points I think are important to think about when it comes to Russia.

我认为在提到俄罗斯的时候，有两点我们得好好想想。

Number one is we have to have foresight and anticipate some of these problems. So back in April, I warned the administration that you had Russian peacekeepers in Georgian territory. That made no sense whatsoever.

第一条是我们得深虑远谋，（趁早）参与其中一些问题。所以早在（今年）四月，我就提醒过管理部门，俄罗斯的维和部队在格鲁吉亚的领土上，而那是没有意义的。

And what we needed to do was replace them with international peacekeepers and a special envoy to resolve the crisis before it boiled over.

我们（当时）需要的是以联合国的维和部队来代替他们。派出一位特使在危机爆发前解决它。

That wasn't done. But had it been done, it's possible we could have avoided the issue.

而那没有实施。但假如实施了，我们有可能避免现在的问题。

The second point I want to make is -- is the issue of energy. Russia is in part resurgent and Putin is feeling powerful because of petro-dollars, as Senator McCain mentioned.

第二点我想要指出的是——能源问题。因为他们输出石油赚来的金钱，俄罗斯部分地复活了（苏联的力量），普京感觉不可一世，正如麦凯恩议员所提到的。

That means that we, as one of the biggest consumers of oil -- 25 percent of the world's oil -- have to have an energy strategy not just to deal with Russia, but to deal with many of the rogue states we've talked about, Iran, Venezuela.

那意味着我们，作为世界上最大的石油消耗国——世界百分之25的石油——必须得有一个能源策略，这个策略不仅仅是针对俄罗斯，也针对其他一些我们已经谈到的流氓国家，伊朗、委内瑞拉。

And that means, yes, increasing domestic production and off-shore drilling, but we only have 3 percent of the world's oil supplies and we use 25 percent of the world's oil. So we can't simply drill our way out of the problem.

那意味着，是的，增加国内的（石油）生产，海底钻探。但我们只有世界石油百分之3的产出，而我们要用世界石油的百分之25.所以我们不能简单地靠钻探来摆脱这个问题。

What we're going to have to do is to approach it through alternative energy, like solar, and wind, and biodiesel, and, yes, nuclear energy, clean-coal technology. And, you know, I've got a plan for us to make a significant investment over the next 10 years to do that.

我们将要做的是通过替代能源来解决这个问题，如太阳能、风能，还有生物柴油，还有，是的，核能、清洁煤炭技术。还有，你们知道，我已经有一个计划为我们在将来的10年在新能源方面做极大的投资。

And I have to say, Senator McCain and I, I think agree on the importance of energy, but Senator McCain mentioned earlier the importance of looking at a record.

我还得说的是，麦凯恩议员和我，我认为我们都认同能源的重要性，但麦凯恩议员先前提到过了：重要的是看看自己的履历。

Over 26 years, Senator McCain voted 23 times against alternative energy, like solar, and wind, and biodiesel.

在过去的26年，麦凯恩议员有23次投票反对替代能源，如太阳能、风能，还有生物柴油。

And so we -- we -- we've got to walk the walk and not just talk the talk when it comes to energy independence, because this is probably going to be just as vital for our economy and the pain that people are feeling at the pump -- and, you know, winter's coming and home heating oil -- as it is our national security and the issue of climate change that's so important.

而因此我们——我们——我们在提到能源独立时，必须得实践了而不仅仅是高谈阔论。（注：奥巴马此言，正是反驳之前麦凯恩指责奥巴马只会高谈阔论，而不实践。）因为这也许对我们的经济和难以忍受的高油价至关紧要——还有，你们知道，冬天就要来了，而民用燃油——那关系到我们民族的安全。还有就是气候变化的问题是如此的重要。

（注：pain at the pump，指的是难以忍受的高油价。）

punkxxx

LEHRER: We've got time for one more lead question segment. We're way out of...

主持人：我们还有时间来多讨论一个引导问题。我们就要摆脱……

(CROSSTALK)
（插话）


MCCAIN: No one from Arizona is against solar. And Senator Obama says he's for nuclear, but he's against reprocessing and he's against storing. So...

麦凯恩：亚利桑那州没有人反对太阳能。而奥巴马议员说他想要发展核能，但他却反对了核燃料回收和存储，所以……

（注：麦凯恩来自亚利桑那州）

OBAMA: That's just not true, John. John, I'm sorry, but that's not true.

奥巴马：那不是真的，约翰，约翰，很抱歉，但那不是真的。

MCCAIN: ... it's hard to get there from here. And off-shore drilling is also something that is very important and it is a bridge.

麦凯恩：……很难从（你现在的立场）这里到达（你想要的目标）那里。而海底钻探同样也非常重要，它可以作为一个（发展核能的）过渡。

And we know that, if we drill off-shore and exploit a lot of these reserves, it will help, at temporarily, relieve our energy requirements. And it will have, I think, an important effect on the price of a barrel of oil.

而且我们知道，如果我们进行海底钻探并开发许多储备，那会有用的，可以临时减轻我们对能源的需求。而且我认为，那会对每桶石油的价格产生重要的影响。

OBAMA: I just have to respond very quickly, just to correct -- just to correct the record.

奥巴马：（插话）我很快回应一下，只是要修正——只是要修正一下（麦凯恩议员刚谈到的）履历。

MCCAIN: So I want to say that, with the Nunn-Lugar thing...

麦凯恩：（不理奥巴马的插话）所以我想说那个，关于那恩-卢格计划……

LEHRER: Excuse me, Senator.

主持人：（插话，对麦凯恩）抱歉，议员。

OBAMA: John?

奥巴马：（插话）约翰？

MCCAIN: ... I supported Nunn-Lugar back in the early 1990s when a lot of my colleagues didn't. That was the key legislation at the time and put us on the road to eliminating this issue of nuclear waste and the nuclear fuel that has to be taken care of.

麦凯恩：……早在上个世纪90年代初期我就支持了那恩-卢格计划，当时我的许多同僚没有（支持）。当时那是一个关键的立法，并把我们放在消除核废料和要操心的核燃料的道路上。

（注：那恩-卢格计划，由议员萨姆.那恩 和 议员理查德.卢格共同发起，其目的是为了“在前苏联保护和拆除大规模杀伤性武器以及相关的底层建设”。其主要的实施方式是由美国政府出钱出专家，在和前苏联成员国达成协议的情况下，帮助他们拆除大规模杀伤性武器，主要是指核武器、生化武器和化学武器。达成了协议的这些国家有：俄罗斯、乌克兰、格鲁吉亚、阿塞拜疆、乌兹别克斯坦、哈萨克斯坦。由于这是一笔很大的开销，那恩议员和卢格议员做出了相当的努力，终于说服国会，在1992年为这个计划立法。

大家还记得我们之前说过，美国的政治情况。对于这种大开销都需要立法，参众两议院投票通过后，再由总统签字，方能生效。这样，每年才能从国库拨款。类似那恩-卢格计划这种开销是有时限的，时限一过，法律就过期作废了，国会也就不会再拨款了。

）

OBAMA: I -- I just have to correct the record here. I have never said that I object to nuclear waste. What I've said is that we have to store it safely.

奥巴马：（插话）我——我只是得澄清一下我们的履历。我从没有说过我反对核废料（处理）。我所说的是我们得将其安全地存储。

And, Senator McCain, he says -- he talks about Arizona.

而，麦凯恩议员，他说——他提到亚利桑那州……

LEHRER: All right.

主持人：（插话）好了。

OBAMA: I've got to make this point, Jim.

奥巴马：（插话）我得指出这点来，吉姆。

LEHRER: OK.

主持人：好吧。

OBAMA: He objects...

奥巴马：他反对……

MCCAIN: I have voted for alternate fuel all of my time...

麦凯恩：（插话）我一直以来都投票支持代用燃料……

OBAMA: He -- he -- he objects...

奥巴马：他……他反对……

(CROSSTALK)
（插话）

LEHRER: One at a time, please.

主持人：请轮流着来。

OBAMA: He objected...

奥巴马：他反对……

LEHRER: One at a time.

主持人：轮流着来。

MCCAIN: No one can be opposed to alternate energy.

麦凯恩：（插话）没人可能会反对代用能源。

OBAMA: All right, fair enough. Let's move on. You've got one more energy -- you've got one more question.

奥巴马：好吧，够公平了。让我们继续吧。（对主持人）你还有一个能源……呃，你还有一个问题。

punkxxx

LEHRER: This is the last -- last lead question. You have two minutes each. And the question is this, beginning with you, Senator McCain.

主持人：这是最后一个——最后一个引导问题。你们俩每人有2分钟。问题是这个，嗯，从你开始，麦凯恩议员。

What do you think the likelihood is that there would be another 9/11-type attack on the continental United States?

你认为在美国本土发生另一次类似911的攻击可能性有多大？

MCCAIN: I think it's much less than it was the day after 9/11. I think it -- that we have a safer nation, but we are a long way from safe.

麦凯恩：我认为自从911以后，这种可能性小了相当多。我认为它……我们的民族更安全了，但我们距离（真正的）安全还有很长一段路。

And I want to tell you that one of the things I'm most proud of, among others, because I have worked across the aisle. I have a long record on that, on a long series of reforms.

而我想要告诉你们我最值得骄傲的一件事，因为我曾经做过两党合作的工作。我在那上面有很长的履历，在一长串改革上。

（注：across the aisle，原意指共和党和民主党在国会之间的走道，现在也用于指不同的观点。）

But after 9/11, Senator Joe Lieberman and I decided that we needed a commission, and that was a commission to investigate 9/11, and find out what happened, and fix it.

911后，乔.李伯曼议员和我确定我们需要一个委员会，去调查911，查清楚发生了什么，并解决它。

And we were -- we were opposed by the administration, another area where I differed with this administration. And we were stymied until the families of 9/11 came, and they descended on Washington, and we got that legislation passed.

然而我们——（布什）政府反对了我们，这是另一个我和现任政府不同的地方。我们（的委员会计划）被阻碍，直到那些911遇难的家属来了，他们袭击华盛顿，而（议会）才通过那个立法。

And there were a series of recommendations, as I recall, more than 40. And I'm happy to say that we've gotten written into law most of those reforms recommended by that commission. I'm proud of that work, again, bipartisan, reaching across the aisle, working together, Democrat and Republican alike.

然后（那个委员会）提出了一系列的建议，我回忆一下，超过40条。我很高兴地说那个委员会建议的绝大多数改革都被写进了法律。我为那个工作而骄傲，再一次两党合作的工作，共同工作，不管是民主党人还是共和党人都一样。

So we have a long way to go in our intelligence services. We have to do a better job in human intelligence. And we've got to -- to make sure that we have people who are trained interrogators so that we don't ever torture a prisoner ever again.

所以我们在情报服务方面有很长的路要走。我们得在间谍情报方面做得更好。我们还需要——确保我们有人接受过审问的培训，这样我们不用再虐待囚犯。

（注：human intelligence，（人工的）间谍情报）

We have to make sure that our technological and intelligence capabilities are better. We have to work more closely with our allies. I know our allies, and I can work much more closely with them.

我们得确保我们的技术和情报能力更好。我们得和我们的盟友更紧密的合作。我了解我们的盟友，我能和他们更紧密地合作。

But I can tell you that I think America is safer today than it was on 9/11. But that doesn't mean that we don't have a long way to go.

我能告诉你们的是我认为今天美国已经比911时安全多了，但那不意味着我们前面没有多长的路可走。

And I'd like to remind you, also, as a result of those recommendations, we've probably had the largest reorganization of government since we established the Defense Department. And I think that those men and women in those agencies are doing a great job.

我还想提醒你们，由于那些建议，我们也许做了自从建立国防部以来对政府部门最大的重组。我认为那些（负责重组事务）部门的人做得非常好。

But we still have a long way to go before we can declare America safe, and that means doing a better job along our borders, as well.

但在我们可以宣称美国是安全的之前，我们还有很长的路要走。那意味着做出更好的边防。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Two minutes, Senator Obama.

主持人：两分钟，奥巴马议员。

OBAMA: Well, first of all, I think that we are safer in some ways. Obviously, we've poured billions of dollars into airport security. We have done some work in terms of securing potential targets, but we still have a long way to go.

奥巴马：好的，首先，我认为我们在某些方面更安全了。显然，我们在机场的安全方面灌注了数十亿的美元。在保护潜在的（恐怖分子袭击）目标上，我们做了一些工作，但我们还有很长的路要走。

（注：同样是说“很长的路要走”。奥巴马基本不满意现状。而麦凯恩却基本满意现状。其实相差很大。）

（注：美国机场的安检比中国严格得多。对于可疑的乘客，通常都是针对外国游客，会要求解下腰带，脱下鞋子，工作人员用各种仪器检查你的鞋子和随身行李。我就这么经历过一次，感觉非常的难受。这些仪器中，我还看见了一位工作人员用一种试纸来检测我那臭哄哄的鞋子。也许是怕我的鞋子里内含炸药吧。毕竟很小的炸弹就能产生相当大的破坏力。

在做检查时，必须在指定位置坐好。该位置类似犯人的座椅。工作人员全部都佩了枪。）

We've got to make sure that we're hardening our chemical sites. We haven't done enough in terms of transit; we haven't done enough in terms of ports.

我们必须得确保我们的化学工厂经得起考验。我们没有在运输（的安全）上做够；我们没有在港口（的安全）上做够。

And the biggest threat that we face right now is not a nuclear missile coming over the skies. It's in a suitcase.

而现在我们最大的威胁不是一颗来自天空的核弹。而是（藏在）手提箱（里的核弹）。

This is why the issue of nuclear proliferation is so important. It is the -- the biggest threat to the United States is a terrorist getting their hands on nuclear weapons.

这就是为什么防止核扩散是如此的重要。它是——对美国最大的威胁是一个恐怖分子，手里拥有核武器。

And we -- we are spending billions of dollars on missile defense. And I actually believe that we need missile defense, because of Iran and North Korea and the potential for them to obtain or to launch nuclear weapons, but I also believe that, when we are only spending a few hundred million dollars on nuclear proliferation, then we're making a mistake.

而我们——我们在为防御导弹花费数十亿的钱。事实上，我相信我们需要导弹防御，因为伊朗和朝鲜，他们有潜在的可能去获取或者发射核武器。但我同样相信，当我们只在防止核不扩散上面花费几百万美元时，我们正在犯错误。

The other thing that we have to focus on, though, is Al Qaida. They are now operating in 60 countries. We can't simply be focused on Iraq. We have to go to the root cause, and that is in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That's going to be critical. We are going to need more cooperation with our allies.

另一件事我们得关注的，就是基地组织。他们现在在60个国家活动。我们不能简单注意在伊拉克上。我们得找到根源，而那就是阿富汗和巴基斯坦。那将是至关紧要的。我们将需要来自我们的盟友更多的合作。

And one last point I want to make. It is important for us to understand that the way we are perceived in the world is going to make a difference, in terms of our capacity to get cooperation and root out terrorism.

而最后一点我想指出的是这个。对于我们来说，非常重要的是要理解，世界将感受到我们做事的方式发生改变，即在获得合作和挖出恐怖组织的根的这个能力方面。

And one of the things that I intend to do as president is to restore America's standing in the world. We are less respected now than we were eight years ago or even four years ago.

如果我是美国总统，我想做的一件事情是恢复美国在世界上的地位。我们现在比起8年前甚至4年前越来越不受人尊重了。

OBAMA: And this is the greatest country on Earth. But because of some of the mistakes that have been made -- and I give Senator McCain great credit on the torture issue, for having identified that as something that undermines our long-term security -- because of those things, we, I think, are going to have a lot of work to do in the next administration to restore that sense that America is that shining beacon on a hill.

奥巴马：这是地球上最伟大的国家。却因为一些（布什政府）犯下的错误——在虐囚问题上，我非常相信麦凯恩议员，那已经被看作是破坏我们远期安全的东西事情——因为那些事情，我们，我认为，为了让美国恢复成那山上闪亮的灯塔，下一届政府得有许许多多的工作做。

punkxxx

LEHRER: Do you agree there's much to be done in a new administration to restore...

主持人：（对麦凯恩）你同意下一届政府要做许许多多的事情，以恢复……

MCCAIN: But in the case of missile defense, Senator Obama said it had to be, quote, "proven." That wasn't proven when Ronald Reagan said we would do SDI, which is missile defense. And it was major -- a major factor in bringing about the end of the Cold War.

麦凯恩：但在导弹防御的问题上，奥巴马议员说那必须得“证明”（我们会遭到导弹的袭击）。当罗纳德.里根说我们要实施战略防御计划时，那就是导弹防御，没有证明。而那是一个主要的——一个使得冷战结束的主要的因素。

（注：SDI, Strategic Defense Initiative）

We seem to come full circle again. Senator Obama still doesn't quite understand -- or doesn't get it -- that if we fail in Iraq, it encourages Al Qaida. They would establish a base in Iraq.

我们看起来又绕了回来。奥巴马议员还没有太明白——或者没有领会——那就是如果我们在伊拉克失败了，那将鼓舞基地组织（的士气）。他们会在伊拉克建立基地。

The consequences of defeat, which would result from his plan of withdrawal and according to date certain, regardless of conditions, according to our military leaders, according to every expert, would lead to defeat -- possible defeat, loss of all the fragile sacrifice that we've made of American blood and treasure, which grieves us all.

而失败的后果……这个失败将由他的撤退计划和不考虑条件的确定的日期所导致。我们的军队领导者们、每一个专家（都预测了撤退）会导致失败——可能的失败，那些让我们悲痛的美国人的鲜血和财富所做出来的脆弱的牺牲，将白白丢失。

All of that would be lost if we followed Senator Obama's plan to have specific dates with withdrawal, regardless of conditions on the ground.

如果我们采用了奥巴马的计划，即为撤退设定一个确切的日期，而不管战场上的情况，所有那些（牺牲）都会丢失。

And General Petraeus says we have had great success, but it's very fragile. And we can't do what Senator Obama wants to do.

彼得雷乌斯将军也说我们获得了巨大的成功，但那成功非常脆弱。我们不能照着奥巴马议员想做的那样做。

That is the central issue of our time. And I think Americans will judge very seriously as to whether that's the right path or the wrong path and who should be the next president of the United States.

那是现在的一个核心问题。我认为美国人得非常认真地考虑（从伊拉克撤退）是正确的做法还是错误的做法，还有就是谁应该是下一届美国总统。

punkxxx

LEHRER: You see the same connections that Senator McCain does?

主持人：（对奥巴马）你是否一样看到麦凯恩议员看到的联系？

OBAMA: Oh, there's no doubt. Look, over the last eight years, this administration, along with Senator McCain, have been solely focused on Iraq. That has been their priority. That has been where all our resources have gone.

奥巴马：噢，毫不怀疑。听着，在过去8年里，这届政府，和麦凯恩议员一起，把注意力完全放在伊拉克上。那一直是他们的重点。那一直是消耗我们资源的地方。

In the meantime, bin Laden is still out there. He is not captured. He is not killed. Al Qaida is resurgent.

而同时，本拉登还在那里。他没有被抓住，他没有被干掉。基地组织复活了。

In the meantime, we've got challenges, for example, with China, where we are borrowing billions of dollars. They now hold a trillion dollars' worth of our debt. And they are active in countries like -- in regions like Latin America, and Asia, and Africa. They are -- the conspicuousness of their presence is only matched by our absence, because we've been focused on Iraq.

同时，我们面临着（新的）挑战。例如，我们从中国借了数十亿的美元。他们现在拥有着价值上万亿我们的债务。而他们现在在一些国家非常活跃——例如像拉丁美洲这样的地区，亚洲，还有非洲。他们正在——由于我们的缺席，他们的存在变得非常显著，因为我们一直在关注伊拉克。

We have weakened our capacity to project power around the world because we have viewed everything through this single lens, not to mention, look at our economy. We are now spending $10 billion or more every month.

把我们的力量布置全球的能力减弱了，因为我们通过这个简单的透镜看一切东西。看看我们的经济，别提了。我们现在每个月还要花100亿或者更多。

And that means we can't provide health care to people who need it. We can't invest in science and technology, which will determine whether or not we are going to be competitive in the long term.

而那意味着我们不能给那些需要的人提供医疗保障。我们还无法再科学和技术上投资，而那将决定我们在长期是否具有竞争力。

There has never been a country on Earth that saw its economy decline and yet maintained its military superiority. So this is a national security issue.

地球上没有这样的一个国家，在看着其经济衰落时还要保持军力的优势。所以这是一个民族安全问题。

We haven't adequately funded veterans' care. I sit on the Veterans Affairs Committee, and we've got -- I meet veterans all across the country who are trying to figure out, "How can I get disability payments? I've got post-traumatic stress disorder, and yet I can't get treatment."

我们没有对老兵照顾投入足够的资金。我是照顾老兵事务委员会的一个成员，我们有——我会见了来自全国各地的老兵，他们想要知道：“我能得到残废救济金吗？我患了创伤后心理压力紧张症，但我却不能得到治疗。”

（注：post-traumatic stress disorder, 创伤后心理压力紧张症，指人在遭遇或对抗重大压力后，其心理状态产生失调之后遗症。这些经验包括生命遭到威胁、严重物理性伤害、身体或心灵上的胁迫。有时候被称之为创伤后压力反应（post-traumatic stress reaction）以强调这个现象乃经验创伤后所产生之合理结果，而非病患心理状态原本就有问题。主要症状包括恶梦、性格大变、情感分离、麻木感（情感上的禁欲或疏离感）、失眠、逃避会引发创伤回忆的事物、易怒、过度警觉、失忆和易受惊吓。）

So we have put all chips in, right there, and nobody is talking about losing this war. What we are talking about is recognizing that the next president has to have a broader strategic vision about all the challenges that we face.

所以我们得把钱花在这里，而没有人说要败掉这场战争。我们说的是要意识到下一任总统必须得在我们面临的所有挑战方面有更广阔的战略性眼光。

That's been missing over the last eight years. That sense is something that I want to restore.

而那在过去8年来被忽略了。那种判断力是我想要恢复的。

punkxxx

MCCAIN: I've been involved, as I mentioned to you before, in virtually every major national security challenge we've faced in the last 20-some years. There are some advantages to experience, and knowledge, and judgment.

麦凯恩：我涉入了——正如我之前向你们提到的——涉入了事实上过去20多年来我们面临的所有主要的民族安全挑战。我在经验、知识和判断上（相对于奥巴马）是有优势的。

And I -- and I honestly don't believe that Senator Obama has the knowledge or experience and has made the wrong judgments in a number of areas, including his initial reaction to Russian invasion -- aggression in Georgia, to his -- you know, we've seen this stubbornness before in this administration to cling to a belief that somehow the surge has not succeeded and failing to acknowledge that he was wrong about the surge is -- shows to me that we -- that -- that we need more flexibility in a president of the United States than that.

而且我——我实在地说，不认为奥巴马议员有这样的知识和经验。他在许多领域做出了错误的判断，包括他最初对俄罗斯侵略格鲁吉亚的反应，到他的……你们知道，他这种固执我们之前在这届政府见过，他咬死一个观点那就是（2006年的）增兵没有成功，而且未能承认他关于增兵（的判断）是错误，这是……这给我的迹象是我们……（停顿）我认为我们需要一个比他那样更灵活点的美国总统。

（注：奥巴马一开始对俄罗斯进攻格鲁吉亚的反应是呼吁双方都要克制，看来，有着20多年从军经验，然后又是20多年从政经验，曾多次面临死亡威胁的老麦，比奥巴马更清楚哪些人是敌人，哪些人是朋友。）

As far as our other issues that he brought up are concerned, I know the veterans. I know them well. And I know that they know that I'll take care of them. And I've been proud of their support and their recognition of my service to the veterans.

至于我们其他的他提出来的事务（我们）已经考虑过了，我了解老兵。我非常了解他们。（注：麦凯恩从军20多年，参加过越战，他自己就是一位老兵。）我相信他们知道我会照顾他们的。而且我一直为他们的支持而骄傲，为他们认可我对老兵的服务而骄傲。

And I love them. And I'll take care of them. And they know that I'll take care of them. And that's going to be my job. But, also, I have the ability, and the knowledge, and the background to make the right judgments, to keep this country safe and secure.

我热爱他们。我会照顾他们的。他们也清楚我会照顾他们。那将是我的工作。而且，我也有这个能力、知识还有背景来做正确的判断，来确保这个国家安全。

Reform, prosperity, and peace, these are major challenges to the United States of America. I don't think I need any on-the-job training. I'm ready to go at it right now.

改革、繁荣和和平，这是美国面临的主要挑战。我不认为我需要任何上岗培训。我现在就已经准备好了。

punkxxx

OBAMA: Well, let me just make a closing point. You know, my father came from Kenya. That's where I get my name.

奥巴马：呃，让我最后指出一点来。你们知道，我的父亲来自肯尼亚。那也是我名字的来源。

（注：肯尼亚：非洲中东部国家，临印度洋。19世纪后期和20世纪初由英国控制，1963年独立。内罗毕是其首都和最大城市。人口15,327,061）

And in the '60s, he wrote letter after letter to come to college here in the United States because the notion was that there was no other country on Earth where you could make it if you tried. The ideals and the values of the United States inspired the entire world.

在60年代，他写了一封又一封的信，想要来美国上大学。这个观点是，地球上没有另外一个这样的国家，即只要你尝试就有收获。美国的理想和价值观鼓舞着整个世界。

I don't think any of us can say that our standing in the world now, the way children around the world look at the United States, is the same.

我不认为我们中的任何一个可以说，我们现在在世界上的地位，全世界的孩子们看待美国的态度还是一样的。

And part of what we need to do, what the next president has to do -- and this is part of our judgment, this is part of how we're going to keep America safe -- is to -- to send a message to the world that we are going to invest in issues like education, we are going to invest in issues that -- that relate to how ordinary people are able to live out their dreams.

而我们需要做的一部分，也就是下任美国总统必须得做的——这是我的判断中的一部分，这是一部分让美国安全的方法——就是——给全世界发布这样的消息：我们将投资于类似教育这样的领域，我们将投资于那些——那些与让每一个普通人梦想成真相关的领域。

And that is something that I'm going to be committed to as president of the United States.

而那是当我成为美国总统时要尽心做的。

LEHRER: Few seconds. We're almost finished.

主持人：（对麦凯恩）几十秒。我们就要结束了。

MCCAIN: Jim, when I came home from prison, I saw our veterans being very badly treated, and it made me sad. And I embarked on an effort to resolve the POW-MIA issue, which we did in a bipartisan fashion, and then I worked on normalization of relations between our two countries so that our veterans could come all the way home.

麦凯恩：吉姆，当我从（越南）监狱回来时，我看到我们的退伍兵待遇很差，这让我很伤心。我从事于解救我们的战俘和失踪人员的努力，我们以两党合作的方式来实施，之后，我致力于我们两国（美国和越南）关系的正常化，这样我们的俘虏能从远道回来。

（注：麦凯恩曾在越战中被俘。他的手臂曾被枪打穿，并被越南人吊起来打。）

I guarantee you, as president of the United States, I know how to heal the wounds of war, I know how to deal with our adversaries, and I know how to deal with our friends.

我向你保证，作为美国总统，我知道怎样治疗战争的伤口，我知道如何对待我们的敌人，我也知道如何对待我们的朋友。

LEHRER: And that ends this debate tonight.

主持人：今晚的辩论到此结束。

On October 2nd, next Thursday, also at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time, the two vice presidential candidates will debate at Washington University in St. Louis. My PBS colleague, Gwen Ifill, will be the moderator.

十月2号，下周四，同样晚上9点，东部时间，两位副总统候选人将在圣路易斯华盛顿大学进行辩论。我在公共广播公司的同事，格温.伊菲尔，将是主持人。

For now, from Oxford, Mississippi, thank you, senators, both. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night.

现在，来自牛津，密西西比，谢谢你们两位。我是吉姆.拉勒尔。谢谢你们，晚安。

(APPLAUSE)

（鼓掌）

END

（2008美国总统竞选辩论 第一场 全文完）

Sep 26, 2008 22:57 ET

九月26号，2008，美国东部时间 22:57

cnwelf

我个人还是欣赏OBAMA